Lagoon bulkheads

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Yeah but big load on short hulls adds to the stresses and robs performance.

here comes one of the best architects to ensure package fits together well. We are very happy with performance for all ponts of sail and in all sorts of sea conditions and wind strengths. But lets not go there as many on CF believe i am spreader of fake news.

Regarding structure tiredness, yeah it may happen if boat is near or over max load. Our is at around 40-50% loaded and there is no sign of tiredness of structure at this point. Also we like this 6-8 kn speed range allowing us to carry less sail than lagoon guidelines most of time.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

here comes one of the best architects to ensure package fits together well. We are very happy with performance for all ponts of sail and in all sorts of sea conditions and wind strengths. But lets not go there as many on CF believe i am spreader of fake news.

Regarding structure tiredness, yeah it may happen if boat is near or over max load. Our is at around 40-50% loaded and there is no sign of tiredness of structure at this point. Also we like this 6-8 kn speed range allowing us to carry less sail than lagoon guidelines most of time.

I totally ignore Lagoon reefing guidelines as in my view they are totally inappropriate for open sea conditions.
They may be fine in smooth offshore wind/sea conditions but in real life they seem more orientated to early boat replacement policy than safe comfortable sailing.

[smj]

Rotten core in the bridgedeck.

https://youtu.be/9pHqxhm0YEw

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by smj

Rotten core in the bridgedeck.

https://youtu.be/9pHqxhm0YEw

Sadly this is a known issue on the L410. The first mate and I suffered this issue on our 2004 L410. In our case we found two water ingress points, both due to bad design and installation by Lagoon. Worst thing it could have been avoided at no cost or extra time by Lagoon with a little bit of forethought.

The first water ingress point was caused by the external toe rail at the base of sliding door only abuts the sliding door. This is only sealed by a very very thin layer of silicon, which over time breaks down allowing water to flow straight down the door into the saloon floor.

The second point of water ingress was under the fridge where the drainage hose connects to the fridge. In a lot of cases the hose has come off and water from the fridge drains into the saloon floor rotting the core.

The rot from the door seal failure caused a lot of damage to the subfloor and the galley cabinetry which I found when I conducted a thorough examination. In the end I had to pull the sliding door and frame out completely to undertake the repair and partially rebuild the galley to remove all the affected woodwork. Not an easy job but very doable.

I really feel for the team on Sailing Nohoa at the moment as I believe the issue they have just identified is totally seperate to the other issue. I would understand if they felt the world was against them at the moment. I would say hang in their guys, the job at hand is very repairable and straight forward. I have PM'D Sailing Nohoa with my findings which may hopefully be of some assistance to them.

Ozsailer

I

[smj]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Sadly this is a known issue on the L410. The first mate and I suffered this issue on our 2004 L410. In our case we found two water ingress points, both due to bad design and installation by Lagoon. Worst thing it could have been avoided at no cost or extra time by Lagoon with a little bit of forethought.



The first water ingress point was caused by the external toe rail at the base of sliding door only abuts the sliding door. This is only sealed by a very very thin layer of silicon, which over time breaks down allowing water to flow straight down the door into the saloon floor.



The second point of water ingress was under the fridge where the drainage hose connects to the fridge. In a lot of cases the hose has come off and water from the fridge drains into the saloon floor rotting the core.



The rot from the door seal failure caused a lot of damage to the subfloor and the galley cabinetry which I found when I conducted a thorough examination. In the end I had to pull the sliding door and frame out completely to undertake the repair and partially rebuild the galley to remove all the affected woodwork. Not an easy job but very doable.



I really feel for the team on Sailing Nohoa at the moment as I believe the issue they have just identified is totally seperate to the other issue. I would understand if they felt the world was against them at the moment. I would say hang in their guys, the job at hand is very repairable and straight forward. I have PM'D Sailing Nohoa with my findings which may hopefully be of some assistance to them.



Ozsailer



I

Have a friend that had the same problem with his 410.
As you said, a pretty easy repair job and I was hoping that was the problem behind the bulkheads moving.

[boatman61]

And without String Theory we would not have had this..

[Joli]

Originally Posted by impi

Ok Guys - well the pitch forks are out and coming at a pace that I won’t be able to keep up with and that’s fine by me - I’m sitting on my boat in a beautiful place writing to you all with the best intensions - not a defender of lagoon because I happen to own one. Lord knows how many arguments I had with Lagoon over warranty issues when the boat was new and we sailed her from France to South Africa to prepare for our great departure as International sailors.

I’m not here to prove anything and I’m certainly not very active on YouTube - we do it for fun and don’t put up regular posts so lets forget about the YouTube status - we don’t ask for money so we don’t dramatise anything and the only time we raise money from it is for animal welfare or other needs where we see it on the outer islands, hence the extensive dog program for the outer islands of New Caledonia.
Anything we say or do on social media is from a space of positive vibes and I’m going to remain on that track .

My attempt to cover some ground concerning the responses raised are simply this - I stand by what I’ve shared and one can do the research around this. I am not saying lagoon do not have an issue with bulkheads but I am saying many catamarans do when they sail across oceans.

It seems to me everyone knows this catamaran hit a rock at speed because so much is coming at me except the possibility which could have contributed to their boats issue. Remember - this ‘post’ is originally put up by Cameron65 and is based on SNohoa as ‘another YouTube channel on a 2005 Lagoon 410 reporting bulkhead issues’. This is the main statement all here are responding to and I'm sharing knowledge as I've received it and seen for myself.

To address some of the responses and I will humbly bow out after this as there’s not much more I can say:

Other brands of catamarans have bulkhead issues:

Well yes, they certainly do and I can say this because I get messages and discussions from folks who do. I’m not at liberty to share the messages publicly because it would betray the trust I owe to owners of catamarans but perhaps I can share a recent one by excluding the name of the person:

This is NOT a Lagoon. Its 1:30am here so I want to get some ziz - tried to upload the photo but not sure how to do URL's so put it on YT link (this is one example and also you can find on internet sites). It would be nice if we could insert photos from the laptop directly into the text body and I need to figure out how that's done.

https://youtu.be/HDnt3TLvQd8

https://youtu.be/HDnt3TLvQd8

Why did we decide to upgrade a new boats bulkheads?

We did this simply because we owned a catamaran before the 440 (different brand and it had a bulkhead issue). My family are also in the catamaran business selling Outremer, HH catamarans and others (NOT lagoons) and have service contracts with leopard, FP and other brands and through discussions we decided to make the boat stronger for our style of cruising, and yes, those who know us know we sail regularly off the beaten track out of season. The boat was intended to be our home on the oceans after retiring from business in South Africa and we sail full time. This is why we strengthened not only the bulkhead but did many other projects on our boat.

A comment was made about did Lagoon sell us a coastal cruiser or a blue water boat - well simply put most production boats are made for charter but 'can be' used for Blue Water Cruising . We wanted to take the 'can be' out of it because we want to sail year on year and have been doing so - we purchased the boat 13 years ago and crossed the Atlantic three times (northern and Southern) before heading through the Panama Canal for more remote destinations.

Another comment:
How many manufacturers are selling their cats with this caveat - "catamarans IN GENERAL are exposed to bulkhead issues because they are wide platforms flexing in heavy seas"? I'm going to hazard a guess and say none. None of those I dealt with did.

Well of course not - big production firms sell to a wide sector of people mostly for charter and in many cases to their own charter companies. I'm not coming forward for Lagoon and I would be first to put my hand up and say they have to design it better - but I'm also saying Lagoon is not alone in this and in general catamaran manufacturers will have to look at this.

I've had the great pleasure of sailing in Australia for a few years - and will say Aussies build some nice boats but we are talking about a much bigger production line where obviously one hears more about issues.

Well folks - it's been real - I am so seldom on CF, hardly come here unless I'm promted to - I hope my comments are seen in a positive light with no malice or agenda intended .

Cheers guys and happy sailing until next time

Well, that's a lot of gobble de gook. At the end of the day, new or newish boats should not have bulk head failures. One hull, two hulls or three hulls. Structural failures cannot be defended.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by impi

Well there are plenty who have cruised around the world and literally hundreds and hundreds of Lagoons sail around the world.

Please provide us with a list of the hundreds and hundreds of Lagoons that have sailed around the world. The only circumnavigator's list I am aware of is

https://www.latitude38.com/circumnavigators/

and it shows one Lagoon 57.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Please provide us with a list of the hundreds and hundreds of Lagoons that have sailed around the world. The only circumnavigator's list I am aware of is

https://www.latitude38.com/circumnavigators/

and it shows one Lagoon 57.

my L 400. It has now over 40k nm. Also django CF member, that is one that won ARC race in a big way. And many, many others.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Sadly this is a known issue on the L410. The first mate and I suffered this issue on our 2004 L410. In our case we found two water ingress points, both due to bad design and installation by Lagoon. Worst thing it could have been avoided at no cost or extra time by Lagoon with a little bit of forethought.

The first water ingress point was caused by the external toe rail at the base of sliding door only abuts the sliding door. This is only sealed by a very very thin layer of silicon, which over time breaks down allowing water to flow straight down the door into the saloon floor.

The second point of water ingress was under the fridge where the drainage hose connects to the fridge. In a lot of cases the hose has come off and water from the fridge drains into the saloon floor rotting the core.

The rot from the door seal failure caused a lot of damage to the subfloor and the galley cabinetry which I found when I conducted a thorough examination. In the end I had to pull the sliding door and frame out completely to undertake the repair and partially rebuild the galley to remove all the affected woodwork. Not an easy job but very doable.

I really feel for the team on Sailing Nohoa at the moment as I believe the issue they have just identified is totally seperate to the other issue. I would understand if they felt the world was against them at the moment. I would say hang in their guys, the job at hand is very repairable and straight forward. I have PM'D Sailing Nohoa with my findings which may hopefully be of some assistance to them.

Ozsailer

I

you saying that rot in video is not structural ? I checked mine 400 after looking at that video and it is built in such a way that water ingress in this area from fridge or doors cant impact structural parts. It is structural part, and they insert into it basically fiberglass box - whole upper level.

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Please provide us with a list of the hundreds and hundreds of Lagoons that have sailed around the world. The only circumnavigator's list I am aware of is

https://www.latitude38.com/circumnavigators/

and it shows one Lagoon 57.

Seriously, You take a report from latitude 38 but what you fail to state is that the list is not exhaustive and that the listed boats are those from the West Coast of America, well short of an exhaustive list. I am unaware of any list that shows all circumnavigations regardless of the vessel being commercial, cruiser, power, sail or otherwise.

Ozsailer

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you saying that rot in video is not structural ? I checked mine 400 after looking at that video and it is built in such a way that water ingress in this area from fridge or doors cant impact structural parts. It is structural part, and they insert into it basically fiberglass box - whole upper level.

What - where do I even remotely say that this is not structural, of course its structural. The fridge and the freezer on the 410 are built in to the fibreglass structure BUT the drain outlet is connected via a hose and clamp that is hard to access as its been filled with with a type of insulation foam. Without digging the foam out you cannot ascertain if the hose has come off the connection.

Ozsailer

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

here comes one of the best architects to ensure package fits together well. We are very happy with performance for all ponts of sail and in all sorts of sea conditions and wind strengths. But lets not go there as many on CF believe i am spreader of fake news.

Regarding structure tiredness, yeah it may happen if boat is near or over max load. Our is at around 40-50% loaded and there is no sign of tiredness of structure at this point. Also we like this 6-8 kn speed range allowing us to carry less sail than lagoon guidelines most of time.

Cute, you now claiming that you're one of the best architects to ensure package fits together well??
Previously you have stated that your lagoon outperforms performance cats, tacks tighter and that you can make any boat go faster, now it seems that you don't exceed 6 to 8 knots. Which is it, maestro??

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Cute, you now claiming that you're one of the best architects to ensure package fits together well??
Previously you have stated that your lagoon outperforms performance cats, tacks tighter and that you can make any boat go faster, now it seems that you don't exceed 6 to 8 knots. Which is it, maestro??

I think the 'architect' comment was sarcasm directed at Simi..
As to performance could it be he is talking about perceived capabilities as opposed to how he chooses to sail his fully loaded for cruising boat..
Why push the limits and shorten a boat's life.. personally I have delivered Lagoons with excessive noise from bulkheads and ominous clunking sounds which I tracked down to coming from the beam sections.. a bit unnerving in mid Atlantic..

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I think the 'architect' comment was sarcasm directed at Simi..
:

Yeah, it more left me shaking my head.
Other designers go for long hulls, light weight, reinforced air construction to get speed
Yet the claim is that lagoon gets it from short fat hulls, heavy weight and Corian benchtops.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Why push the limits and shorten a boat's life.. personally I have delivered Lagoons with excessive noise from bulkheads and ominous clunking sounds which I tracked down to coming from the beam sections.. a bit unnerving in mid Atlantic..

Push the limits?
The limits clearly are not very high on a lagoon.

I have sailed on cats that have been pushed hard (not to their limits) every time there is a bit of wind and they are decades old.
By pushed hard I mean seeing mid teens and flashes of twenties in boat speed, fire hoses on, occasional wall of green coming over cabin roof and flying hulls and these are not race boats.
Decades old, never seen bulkhead issues
But they did have properly designed and built bulkheads.

I guess it could be said their limits had been reached at times with blown sails, spat masts, deck fittings tearing out of boat, but again, main boat structure and bulkheads intact.