Lagoon bulkheads

[Chotu]

I mean, I would be upset if I bought one of these hunk of junk boats. Lol at the very minimum you expect structural integrity. Never mind performance.

however, I don’t see it as that big of a deal.

I still haven’t seen a picture of what these bulkheads look like where they meet the hull, but it’s not that hard to go around your boat and tab them in.

You don’t even need to make a complete fillet around the entire bulkhead, as long as you tab it in a few 12" - 24" spots, it’s thousands of times better than what they did at the factory.

doing this preemptively would keep them from popping off for the lifespan of the boat.

as a matter of fact, contact me if you want this done to your Lagoon but don't have the time or know-how. I could get it done for you.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by sailmontana

.
ALLL boats have their issues,

But one should never expect or accept poor quality work on the bits that count and hold a boat together.

Crappy plumbing,, dropping headliner , not enough sealant on a hatch is one thing

Bulkheads cracking, and becoming unattached, creaking wracking boats structural FAIL is something else and simply unnaceprable

you do actually get what you pay for

And for most lagoon owners they spend a lot and get what?

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I mean, I would be upset if I bought one of these hunk of junk boats. Lol at the very minimum you expect structural integrity. Never mind performance.
...
as a matter of fact, contact me if you want this done to your Lagoon but don't have the time or know-how. I could get it done for you.

Maybe if you want people to hire you to work on their boats you would want to resist the temptation to insult them? Just a thought.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I mean, I would be upset if I bought one of these hunk of junk boats. Lol at the very minimum you expect structural integrity. Never mind performance.

however, I don’t see it as that big of a deal.

I still haven’t seen a picture of what these bulkheads look like where they meet the hull, but it’s not that hard to go around your boat and tab them in.

You don’t even need to make a complete fillet around the entire bulkhead, as long as you tab it in a few 12" - 24" spots, it’s thousands of times better than what they did at the factory.

doing this preemptively would keep them from popping off for the lifespan of the boat.

as a matter of fact, contact me if you want this done to your Lagoon but don't have the time or know-how. I could get it done for you.

Problem I believe is the lack of access to the bulkheads. The interiors are built in modules then dropped in before the deck is installed. From what I’ve heard a lot of the screws are inaccessible.

[simonhantler]

having a look at some new lagoons was enough to put me off. if the finish is rubbish imagine what’s underneath.
the older 57 and 67 were amazing fast cats. well built and i would be happy with one of those but i think lagoons have got worse as they get newer. even parlay say the new ones have reporters bulkhead issues. impi have done a great job of strengthening their boat but really shouldn’t need to do that to a new yacht.

[simonhantler]

correct

[Joli]

Originally Posted by sailmontana

Oh man, some of these reads are just SO entertaining. The rhetoric is endless.
Speaking for balls deep in a 2006 L440 refit I will tell you that upon pre-purchase inspection the P/S forward bulkheads were found to be detached at the "snot". The stern BH's were found to be acceptable by surveyor who was said to be "the best" so I trusted him. The boat creaks A LOT at anchor in cross swells and at sea. I've pulled the stairs on the port side and found yet more glue separation. Is this structural or annoying or both I'm not sure. Bow bulkheads where glassed in and Nanny Cay did an amazing job!
What I can tell you that during a recent "Oh-My-Goda" passage to SXM in good weather from STT I was swallowed by some 12 foot peaked waves directly on the bow that pushed me backwards (a whole nother story) and though unsettling she drove through without a shutter, well, maybe a little. At times I took water right up to the top of the bimini giving me a nice foot wash. She is a flybridge design of which I'm not much of a fan but it was a "good deal" so we went for it. So far our biggest financial expense has been the saildrives replacement. All motor and SD bolts P/S had to be cut out along with mount beds, mounts fabricated, beds/mounts reglassed ect.
While doing more research on this buckhead matter I found an article about nacelle stress cracks/fractures showing more definitive evidence to buckhead failure. If my bulkhead / snot issue was structural and failing I think after what I endured it would have showed these signs; it did not.
The confidence I have in my sailing ability and boat were put to the test during this passage (I don't recommend BTW) and while entertaining to read all the armchair comments is NOT helping this community.
My very first sailing educational charter was on a L410. It started a 15 year charter career to the VI's and many other USA waters. I scoured the classifieds and landed on a L440 with MANY hard miles in the southern caribbean as a charter maid. I am her new sugar daddy and have already enabled many more sailing addicts that will no doubt move on to bigger and better voyages.
I believe in extreme and ultimate personal responsibility for one's actions and words no matter the avatar. I "bought my tickets and knew what I was getting in to" now, will you say "let me crash"? Will you laugh and point at me as I am flowdering?
Lagoons are a portly comfortable stable breed of mostly charter layed-out catamaran built for a pretty specific market. The charter market, would you all agree? 99% would say an emphatic "YES!"
Buyer be-ware I say, of which I am. I knew what I bought and the $200K price tag was so far appropriate and maybe a "good deal" if that and boat actually go together. The YouTubers and the naysayers alike can at least agree on something, Lagoons are a mass production catamaran and yes, CAN sail oceans far and wide and will make it. Will they be first to finish, no, but will get there. Will they be worse for the ware, most likely.
ALLL boats have their issues, you do actually get what you pay for and for what I got for what I paid for in a Lagoon I got A LOT of boat! It needs A LOT of TLC and after a scammer of a charter manager I am now paying more to fix an unmanaged charter yacht, again, my fault!
The competition that illegal and cheap unsafe labor has put on any manufacturing is one of the many worldly problems and challenges that we all face. One can do a 5 minute Google search and find many issue with the repercussions of that with just concrete and bridges alone.
This rant will continue far past many sunsets on distant horizons. What I know is that my L440 has already delivered one hell of a fireside chat and everyone that I speak with is wide eyed with interest and maybe a bit jealous of my adventures.
With her "warts and all", I have a strong confidence in my L440. I am not naive on what she can handle, I am not rounding any cape or attempting any pole crossing. It's a F-ing Lagoon for G's sake! It's a sailing condo. Yes she creaks and pops when in a tough go. Will it fall apart and leave me jumping to my fate to the just inflated life raft? Maybe; but probably not. I know her limits and she pushes me to mine; and she can take WAY more than I am comfortable with. That I am sure of and that is really all that matters.
Let's be kind here, let's educate others so we can make our own decisions. Most importantly, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that all boats are built with the same ideals in mind.
I have many tools in the tool box and I know what each one can do and what it was designed for. If all you have is a hammer...
Go sailing...

St Thomas to St Martin isn't really a passage just an uncomfortable 80 mile beat into the Caribbean two step. 12 hours and your there.

Just saying.

[nicholas_isaac]

This, precisely.

Bulkheads detaching/buckling after less than 10 years, particularly on a catamaran where they are essential to structural integrity, is not just an "issue". It's a fundamental structural problem akin to the foundation subsiding on a house. It's not cosmetic. It simply should not happen in a properly founded boat. There isn't a single feature ("dock appeal", ease of handling, etc.) that is an acceptable tradeoff for that type of problem. My boat is 50 years old this year - and I fully expect the bulkheads will be fine in another 50.

It is also not rocket science. For those insisting that only professional engineers are entitled to express an opinion on such an obvious structural problem affecting more 10% of a fleet after such a short time... really?!? Or, levelling ad hominem attacks against the youtuber who first brought light to the problem as a "tatooed" idiot? I note that Lagoon hasn't taken that approach - they (and their lawyers) KNOW there's a problem. It will no doubt take professional engineers to ultimately diagnose the exact risk tolerances that were exceeded, how, and the best fix going forward.

The broader issue -- in my humble opinion - is the drive of much modern boat design to reduce cost to the absolute minimum while maximizing "dock appeal", with little regard for conservative, proven approaches to naval engineering that would suggest not skimping on things as important as bulkheads to save a few dollars -- and let's not kid ourselves, that's what happened. You can get a lot with modern boat design - spacious, fast, light, comparatively inexpensive, easy to handle, and seaworthy. Many production boats (and Lagoons) are circling the world. I disparage neither all production boats, nor their owners. I do wonder however if the tradeoffs being made on the design floor by bean-counters were more explicit, owners would necessarily make the same choices? I would be very curious how much it would actually cost to have used slightly more robust bulkheads, or tabbed them in... more than the white oak interior option, or the upgraded sail package?

[Simi 60]

^^^ well said
Exactly what I was getting at and wanted to say but couldn't be bothered typing that many words

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by lestersails

Maybe if you want people to hire you to work on their boats you would want to resist the temptation to insult them? Just a thought.

I’m not working on the boat. Lol. I can’t go near epoxy.

I already have enough things going on in life thank you.

I could certainly help people who needed it done to get it done however.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by smj

Problem I believe is the lack of access to the bulkheads. The interiors are built in modules then dropped in before the deck is installed. From what I’ve heard a lot of the screws are inaccessible.

Ooof. This is why I was asking for a picture way up thread. I still haven’t seen this. If you can’t get at the intersection of the hull and the bulkhead, these things are almost a lost cause. Wow.

That’s a complete economic disaster if you have to tear the interior apart to make the preventative repair.

I was hoping they would be thoughtfully constructed at least, where you can get to everything.

[Chotu]

A quick estimate of how much it would have cost lagoon to do it properly is as follows:


$600 USD in polyester resin
$200 USD in glass
$300 USD in fillers
$816 USD in labor

So about $2000 in cost to do it correctly.

[macieknan]

Originally Posted by Chotu

A quick estimate of how much it would have cost lagoon to do it properly is as follows:
.

My suspicion it is not the materials or even labour costs, but the possible impact to the production line and thus to the bottom line of the company, way in excess of labour costs... At this point it has to be a conscious decision to prioritize volume. And this may possibly not change, as the charter market, their number one customer, isn"t likely to squawk unless their resell value really and significantly tanks, which is, lets face it, pretty unlikely

[merrydolphin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

A quick estimate of how much it would have cost lagoon to do it properly is as follows:


$600 USD in polyester resin
$200 USD in glass
$300 USD in fillers
$816 USD in labor

So about $2000 in cost to do it correctly.

wow, that sounds really cheap. That would have to be absolute ideal perfect scenario. Haul, block up and re-true the boat to specs, then if you have to access bulkhead tabs and joinery wow. I have seen some of these that would take many tens of thousand to make right. That price sounds more like just a preventative surface fix.

[Bullshooter]

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

wow, that sounds really cheap. That would have to be absolute ideal perfect scenario. Haul, block up and re-true the boat to specs, then if you have to access bulkhead tabs and joinery wow. I have seen some of these that would take many tens of thousand to make right. That price sounds more like just a preventative surface fix.

I believe Chofu was estimating the extra cost to do it right as it was being built, not fixing it after problems arose.