Lagoon cats now on discount...

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by SV WELDER

I guess I had assumed they have their own in house designers for these. It will be interesting to see where the blame lays. Of course since beneteau owns the brand, if it gets too damaged they can always just close that brand and open a new one.

VPLP is the naval architectural firm that did the design.

[txgunguy]

Originally Posted by rabbi

You do understand the difference between design and build, do you?

I’ve been an engineer for 35 years, I’ve worked on projects from firearms to locomotives, to bridges. So to answer your question yes I understand.

If you wish to disagree with something I’ve said that’s fine. But to be a key board warrior with no knowledge of who I am or what I’ve done is uncalled for.

I’ll make no assumptions about you, but let your comment speak to your ignorance.

[Americanrancher]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen

While Colin and Jamie are undoubtedly skilled, it's their attitude I admire most. I really don't think their repair took them a solid 5 weeks of work though. I see a good porting of that time being, going back and forth with Lagoon, the architects, waiting on responses, sourcing materials, and figuring out how to take apart a boat that wasn't meant to be disassembled past a point and not having access to lagoons proprietary information. Plus, a manufacturer isn't going to be paying it's tech's $100/hr each.

TBH, Lagoon's cost to repair these boats would probably be under $15K each on the high side. Figure in an arbitrary high of 200 hours of labor per boat @$20/hr, and $2.5K in materials since they're buying in bulk. Other than that, it's just the cost of facilities and utilities if they decide to do people right and fix the boats.. And the costs will drop as their workers find faster ways to do the job or run into boats that are less ****ed than Parlay was. (I'd be pretty blown away if Colin read this and decided to share his repair time/cost on Parlay to see how close I am.)

Don't get me wrong, $15,000,000 to fix 1,000 boats is still a big chunk of change, but I really think the costs involved in this repair are overblown. If the guys at Lagoon would get out of panic-mode, I have a feeling they might realize it's not as bad as it looks numbers wise to just open up a lane at their yard for repairs, or rent space at a place like the yard in Panama that Colin's at and just start going to town repairing all the boats...

That said, I still submitted my offer on a leopard instead of a lagoon. I want to get sailing, not sit around and wait in line for months on a repair.

You are completely out of touch with reality, yard workers for $20 an hour? Not in any developed country! In CA and FL in the US try $120 an hour, more in the EU and in the Caribbean you would be hard pressed to find labor qualified to do the work at any price. It would be cheaper for Lagoon and better for the owners to scrap the boats and replace them with new boats at a discount.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by Americanrancher

You are completely out of touch with reality, yard workers for $20 an hour? Not in any developed country! In CA and FL in the US try $120 an hour, more in the EU and in the Caribbean you would be hard pressed to find labor qualified to do the work at any price. It would be cheaper for Lagoon and better for the owners to scrap the boats and replace them with new boats at a discount.

I would think that if it comes down to them fixing all the 450s, someone's insurance is going to pay. The dealer? Lagoon? VPLP? Probably only if it's the original buyer and maybe even only if it's still within the hull warranty period.

[goboatingnow]

Firstly this isn’t likely to be a RCD issue. My own view having been in a Beneteau factory is poor assembly or cutting corners. , this isn’t the first time Beneteau have been caught napping

I doubt it’s the design studio either. Maybe they underestimated the bulkhead forces. But I understand it’s also poor tabbing and plexus not in contact with anything. That’s a manufacturing issue.

Lagoon can’t really spread the blame to any body but themselves , RCD specifications arnt to the level of detail whose failure is evident here.

Ultimately lagoon will

1. Tough it out and deny , while quietly beefing up new builds

2. Repair those that shout loudest

3. Cough up and repair everything

[crayiii]

Only time will tell. Those that know what Lagoon will do aren't talking and those that are talking, don't know.

[Kaimana]

There's a quick and easy way to fix too-high rigging tension by tuning your rig "the opposite" of conventional. I define conventional as "tighten the topmast shrouds, backstay and headstay BAR-TAUT so there's NO sag in the headstay". This is ostensibly to give you the best sail shape when going to windward.

But it puts a tremendous strain on the boat, the rig, and whatever's supporting the rig down below. Your rigging is bar-taut when just sitting at the dock! And that puts unnecessary strain on the rig and boat, and ages everything just that much faster. Both failure and replacement with its attendant costs come sooner.

How do you tune your rig to avoid this? On a 45-foot boat, you'd start with a headstay you could pull back 3 to 4 inches easily by hand while standing on the foredeck, instead of the usual bar-taut headstay.

Now, while sailing in a 7-10 knot wind, instead of tightening the upper shrouds MORE to bring the top of the mast back straight, LOOSEN the mid-mast stays and lowers to move the middle of the mast in line with the masthead. Check by sighting straight up the mast from the base, then loosen/tighten the appropriate turnbuckle, while keeping your hands OFF the upper shroud, headstay, and backstay turnbuckles!

Repeat on the other side of the boat. Now you've tuned the rig for all winds under 10 knots.

Next, go out in 15-18 knots of wind, and repeat the above process. DO NOT give in to the temptation to tighten the upper shrouds, headstay, and backstay! Next, repeat this tuning process in 25-30 knots of wind. You're done. You now have a mast that is as straight as a stick, in 30 knots of wind.

You'll notice something disconcerting: when sailing to windward in that 30 knots, your leeward rigging is hanging slack, in big loops between the ends of the spreaders (you need a spreader end that positively holds the rigging wire in! Duh!). But it's just disconcerting, not dangerous. Your mast is as straight as that proverbial stick, and in no danger of collapsing because of loads that are too great.

Now, you have a boat with a stick that's tuned to be straight, and deliver all the columnar load down to the mast step, without having any more than necessary strain on the rig's structure when NOT sailing. Your rigging wire and wire ends will last longer if you tune your rig this way.

Oh, you say: "my headsails will sag and bag!" Yeah, they will. Until you get them recut; tell your sailmaker what you're doing, and why. They may call you crazy, but go ahead anyway.

I am a sailmaker, and cut the headsails on my 37-foot cutter so they were flat when hanging from my "saggy" headstay and staysail stay.

In 1975, I sailed past everything on San Francisco Bay going to weather, by passing through the wind shadow on their leeward side, then tacking across their bows about a half mile after I'd passed them. It didn't matter how much they headed up; I'd head up to match them, until their sails were flogging and mine weren't.Then they'd fall off, I'd pass them and wave.

I'm talking racing boats, not Westsails and Channel Cutters. I passed a bunch of C&C 39's and 41's. The biggest boat I passed was a C&C 45 fitted out for IOR racing, with a full crew of 6 college deck-apes. And mine was a home-built, too.

My wife says I'm not a nice man.

With Warm Aloha, Tim

[Sand crab]

I think it's both the design and the manufacturing process.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Americanrancher

You are completely out of touch with reality, yard workers for $20 an hour? Not in any developed country! In CA and FL in the US try $120 an hour, more in the EU and in the Caribbean you would be hard pressed to find labor qualified to do the work at any price. It would be cheaper for Lagoon and better for the owners to scrap the boats and replace them with new boats at a discount.

Well...there is qualified labor, at very reasonable rates, exactly where Colin chose to do this work. I assume he chose Linton Bay for that reason, but I dont see him using local labor in the videos. There are a few good experienced structural glass workers who contract there.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Well...there is qualified labor, at very reasonable rates, exactly where Colin chose to do this work. I assume he chose Linton Bay for that reason, but I dont see him using local labor in the videos. There are a few good experienced structural glass workers who contract there.

YouTube is a BUSINESS for Parley Revival. You are seeing what will make them the most money. It's a business. Real housewives aren't real.

[Kropdad]

Originally Posted by Sbpoint

I’m in the market and the 450 has been completely crossed off my list. It also makes me wary of Lagoons in general after seeing how everything is glued together. I’m likely not alone.

I totally agree, it does make you wonder about the build quality across the brand as it's obvious it's the same tradesmen building every model. You could even consider Beneteau as suspect for the same reason.

[David B]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Beneteau are not inclined to facilitate factory tours in my experience

Might have changed, or might be you are referring to Beneteau USA, but we had a great tour of the Beneteau facility at Saint Gilles where the larger monos are produced, prior to delivery of our Oceanis 50 in 2012.

There was no rushing, we were shown every stage (including a glimpse at the development area), and spent well over an hour there - just the two of us, and one of the management team.

[David B]

Originally Posted by HighTemp

I think that he may have been saying that he would not buy one unless he was permitted to tour the factory as his boat was being built to insure it was done right. That is the way I interpreted the post.

My interpretation too.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Kaimana

There's a quick and easy way to fix too-high rigging tension by tuning your rig "the opposite" of conventional. I define conventional as "tighten the topmast shrouds, backstay and headstay BAR-TAUT so there's NO sag in the headstay". This is ostensibly to give you the best sail shape when going to windward. .....


..... I am a sailmaker, and cut the headsails on my 37-foot cutter so they were flat when hanging from my "saggy" headstay and staysail stay.

In 1975, I sailed past everything on San Francisco Bay going to weather, by passing through the wind shadow on their leeward side, then tacking across their bows about a half mile after I'd passed them. It didn't matter how much they headed up; I'd head up to match them, until their sails were flogging and mine weren't.Then they'd fall off, I'd pass them and wave.

I'm talking racing boats, not Westsails and Channel Cutters. I passed a bunch of C&C 39's and 41's. The biggest boat I passed was a C&C 45 fitted out for IOR racing, with a full crew of 6 college deck-apes. And mine was a home-built, too.

My wife says I'm not a nice man.

With Warm Aloha, Tim

Love it! .

[David B]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I think he's referring to this latest vid. Parley puts the blame on Lagoon and the architects/designers. Lagoon is trying to blame it on everything else and some online are blaming everything on Parley. These vids are dated back in April btw.

Thank you for that.

I see what people are on about now.

Hmm - design flaw in my book.

Needs to be recognised and sorted.