Leopard 45, 2021 or Newer - Owners experience?

[APage]

Hi All,

My husband and I are considering purchasing a used Leopard 45, 2021 or newer. However, I’ve recently come across a variety of unsatisfactory owner reviews. It seems as though these may be hard to come by as many owners are held to NDA’s in order to obtain repair instructions and the like. As much of this is hearsay, and difficult to collate, we’re very interested to hear from current owners of the 2021 and newer models.

Some common themes that we’ve come across are:
-Dry fiber glass
-Hull cracks near tension bar
-Leaking bulkheads/ windows
-Improper installation of mast conduit resulting in wind instrumental failure
-Leaking stanchions, deck fittings, and chain plate

Have you had similar experiences? We’ve been actively saving for 6 years and will be in the market within the next 1.5 so it goes without saying that this is a big decision and we don’t want to sink our funds into a dream that turns out to be a nightmare. Any and all first hand insight would be greatly appreciated.
Also happy to field emails if you have sensitive information to disclose but don’t feel comfortable discussing via an open forum.

Thanks,
Aariel

[kaz911]

I have watched quite a few videos on youtube detailing the issues according to the owners.

Watch Travel Sketch here: https://www.youtube.com/@travelsketch/videos

Watch Sailing Utopia here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaYRd3A8r9Q

The design flaws Utopia shows are just mind bending. Going through multiple sheets on a single crossing is not ok. Even my 1998 monohul has angled blocks and clutches where needed - resulting in no excess sheet chafe.

But remember it is all single sided stories. There are no responses from the factory on separate videos. So while it can all be right - it can also mostly owner "issues"

There are more channels with unhappy owners. But I just watched episodes from the above. Youtube will probably show you more once you have watched a few of the above ..

[APage]

@kaz911 thanks so much for the input. We’ve definitely done our deep dive on YouTube and other forums to try and get a better understanding of firsthand owner experiences. I’m certain that there may be a few one off issues that Individual owners experience, but it’s really those systemic design flaws/ Poor workmanship that were after. Those are unfortunately, the “gifts” that keep on giving and we prefer to make a well-informed decision with our life savings as best we can. Particularly because these issues seem to be intensified in the 2021 or newer models or rather “COVID models”. While there are certain design aesthetics that draw us to these newer models, like the bridge deck seating and modern layout, my apprehension surrounding the seemly chronic workmanship issues are no less quelled at the moment. I suppose we’re hoping to hear both good and bad from current owners if they’re willing to share.

[jim King]

Personally I'd go with one of the earlier models (2019 -2020) which don't have the top deck lounge. I own a 2020 and have noticed that everything after this date has the upper deck lounge. We have chartered on three with the top deck lounge and found them be suitable only for about an hour or so a day. Too hot or to dark the rest. I also much prefere the earlier models mainsail layout with a jibe preventer layout. The later models with traveler centered on the top deck are hard to stabalize when at anchor.
Save yourself some money and look to a 2019 or 2020 model.
jim

[CarlF]

I bought my Leopard 50 three years ago - a 2021 build. It has been the most trouble free of the five cruising sailboats I've owned. That's not to say "no problems" - just fewer than the others. I was going to buy a Fountaine Pajot until Leopard owning friends made me reconsider. I've never seen such a loyal group of boat owners. Many on their 2nd or 3rd Leopard.

I consider the buid quality to be at the upper end of production boats. The thing is built like a tank with huge metal cross beams that make the hulls incredibly stiff. Even after three years - when I go below under sail it's amazingly quiet. None of the squeaks and rattles you hear in most production boats. I think that's because 1/2 go to the Moorings. The Moorings can't have boats breaking down and cancelling charters. There are lots of small details on Leopards - such as redundant fresh water pumps - that likely come from the Moorings spec.

I've never met a Leopard owner (and I've met over 100) who experienced resin starved laminate or serious structural problems. I'm sure they happen, but it's incredibly rare. In any case, these should have been uncovered before purchase by hiring an independed survey - yes, you should have a brand new boat surveyed. Mistakes happen. I would also stay away from any boat by any builder with a low hull number (under 50). Some models have a rocky start.

Most of the other problems in the videos are minor and part of owning a cruising sailboat. Raymarine electronics are a constant annoyance. Lines always chafe on a transatlantic crossing. New deck leaks appear. My "needs fixing" list has about 25 things on it. Everyone of my boats over 40 years has had a similiar length list. As one item gets fixed another takes its place. "Cruising is boat repair in exotic locations". If you can't live with this - get an RV.

So to the OP - You'll love your Leopard. Use a good surveyor. Don't cross an ocean or go to another coutnry (even the Bahamas) until the boat is well shaken down on shorter cruises. And have enough money left in your budget ($50-$100K) to do all the things you'll want to do after purchase - both planned and some surprises.

[Cloroxbottle]

In general, I have found that the build quality of many things began an abrupt deterioration around 2008. Just saw something where owners of a new Seawind suffered a double engine failure after the factory used the wrong gasket material for the fuel tanks, which deteriorated and got into the diesel.

[kaz911]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I bought my Leopard 50 three years ago - a 2021 build. It has been the most trouble free of the five cruising sailboats I've owned. That's not to say "no problems" - just fewer than the others. I was going to buy a Fountaine Pajot until Leopard owning friends made me reconsider. I've never seen such a loyal group of boat owners. Many on their 2nd or 3rd Leopard.

I consider the buid quality to be at the upper end of production boats. The thing is built like a tank with huge metal cross beams that make the hulls incredibly stiff. Even after three years - when I go below under sail it's amazingly quiet. None of the squeaks and rattles you hear in most production boats. I think that's because 1/2 go to the Moorings. The Moorings can't have boats breaking down and cancelling charters. There are lots of small details on Leopards - such as redundant fresh water pumps - that likely come from the Moorings spec.

I've never met a Leopard owner (and I've met over 100) who experienced resin starved laminate or serious structural problems. I'm sure they happen, but it's incredibly rare. In any case, these should have been uncovered before purchase by hiring an independed survey - yes, you should have a brand new boat surveyed. Mistakes happen. I would also stay away from any boat by any builder with a low hull number (under 50). Some models have a rocky start.

Most of the other problems in the videos are minor and part of owning a cruising sailboat. Raymarine electronics are a constant annoyance. Lines always chafe on a transatlantic crossing. New deck leaks appear. My "needs fixing" list has about 25 things on it. Everyone of my boats over 40 years has had a similiar length list. As one item gets fixed another takes its place. "Cruising is boat repair in exotic locations". If you can't live with this - get an RV.

So to the OP - You'll love your Leopard. Use a good surveyor. Don't cross an ocean or go to another coutnry (even the Bahamas) until the boat is well shaken down on shorter cruises. And have enough money left in your budget ($50-$100K) to do all the things you'll want to do after purchase - both planned and some surprises.

I think you should watch the videos... The chafe is there because of a serious design issue causing the it. Yes you will have some chafe on an Atlantic crossing - but not to that extent on a "well designed" yacht. It is darn visible why IF you watch the videos.

The Raymarine issues - yes Raymarine have issues - but when a yacht is delivered with cables management system (cable run pipes) is not put in correctly and cables hang loose - those cables break and get damaged.

I don't doubt that Leopard can build great boats. But something see, has happened recently making it a roll of the dice if boat is any good.

[kaz911]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I bought my Leopard 50 three years ago - a 2021 build. It has been the most trouble free of the five cruising sailboats I've owned. That's not to say "no problems" - just fewer than the others. I was going to buy a Fountaine Pajot until Leopard owning friends made me reconsider. I've never seen such a loyal group of boat owners. Many on their 2nd or 3rd Leopard.

I consider the buid quality to be at the upper end of production boats. The thing is built like a tank with huge metal cross beams that make the hulls incredibly stiff. Even after three years - when I go below under sail it's amazingly quiet. None of the squeaks and rattles you hear in most production boats. I think that's because 1/2 go to the Moorings. The Moorings can't have boats breaking down and cancelling charters. There are lots of small details on Leopards - such as redundant fresh water pumps - that likely come from the Moorings spec.

I've never met a Leopard owner (and I've met over 100) who experienced resin starved laminate or serious structural problems. I'm sure they happen, but it's incredibly rare. In any case, these should have been uncovered before purchase by hiring an independed survey - yes, you should have a brand new boat surveyed. Mistakes happen. I would also stay away from any boat by any builder with a low hull number (under 50). Some models have a rocky start.

Most of the other problems in the videos are minor and part of owning a cruising sailboat. Raymarine electronics are a constant annoyance. Lines always chafe on a transatlantic crossing. New deck leaks appear. My "needs fixing" list has about 25 things on it. Everyone of my boats over 40 years has had a similiar length list. As one item gets fixed another takes its place. "Cruising is boat repair in exotic locations". If you can't live with this - get an RV.

So to the OP - You'll love your Leopard. Use a good surveyor. Don't cross an ocean or go to another coutnry (even the Bahamas) until the boat is well shaken down on shorter cruises. And have enough money left in your budget ($50-$100K) to do all the things you'll want to do after purchase - both planned and some surprises.

I think you should watch the videos... The chafe is there because of a serious design issue causing the it. Yes you will have some chafe on an Atlantic crossing - but not to that extent on a "well designed" yacht. It is darn visible why IF you watch the videos.

The Raymarine issues - yes Raymarine have issues - but when a yacht is delivered with cables management system (cable run pipes) is not put in correctly and cables hang loose - those cables break and get damaged.

I don't doubt that Leopard can build great boats. But something seems to have happened recently, making it a roll of the dice if boat is any good. (apart from the roof chafe - that is just bad design)

[Blakhomer]

After watching Sailing Utopia's recent videos, I'd be rather nervous about dealing with Leopard.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Blakhomer

After watching Sailing Utopia's recent videos, I'd be rather nervous about dealing with Leopard.

I had just posted a thread about 2023 Leopard here

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ew-286853.html

We have done a lot of work on this boat and if you need any further info, you can PM me.

Cheers

yeloya

[CarlF]

Originally Posted by kaz911

I think you should watch the videos... The chafe is there because of a serious design issue causing the it. Yes you will have some chafe on an Atlantic crossing - but not to that extent on a "well designed" yacht. It is darn visible why IF you watch the videos.

The Raymarine issues - yes Raymarine have issues - but when a yacht is delivered with cables management system (cable run pipes) is not put in correctly and cables hang loose - those cables break and get damaged.

I don't doubt that Leopard can build great boats. But something seems to have happened recently, making it a roll of the dice if boat is any good. (apart from the roof chafe - that is just bad design)

I have watched the video.

I have the exact same block that showed so much chafe in the video. While the lead isn't the best, I've had no significant chafe there in three years of owning the same boat. I thnk the owner made two errors

1) He set off on a translatlantic crossing without enough shake down. Otherwise he would have spotted the chafe and re-aligned the block before leaving. But any transatlantic crossing on any boat will have chafe on running rigging. You should carry plenty of spare line. I believe the chafe came from flying a Code 0 at excessive windspeeds for long periods during his Atlantic crossing. Frankly, a Code 0 should hardly ever be flown on an ocean crossing. And never at night. It's a light air sail that should be furled at 10kts if you want it to last. There simply is no reason to put that sort of load on the Code 0 sheet when the heavy duty genoa would have done as well.

2) I've never had a problem with my mast conduits. The owner appreantlyl had the Leopard after-market customization group add extra masthead equipment - including a masthead FLIR unit that added heavy cables to the conduits. I've never seen a Leopard with a masthead FLIR nor is it on the Leopard option list. It strikes me as a really bad idea. But if he was going to add toys like that, the conduits should have been strengthened. Problems caused by unusual aftermarket add-ons is really not a fault of the Leopard design or the factory. But again, this should have been found and fixed under warranty during a 6 month to year shakedown before trying a TransAtlantic crossing.

As I mentioned, my L50 has had fewer design/build issues than any of the other four 50ft+ cruising boats I've owned (including semi custom boats like a Discovery 55). That's not to say there were no problems - but that's just the nature of these big complex cruising boats.

And to the OP - I looked hard at Leopard, Lagoon, and FountainePajot before buying my Leopard and talked to many owners of all three (I crossed off Bali before starting). There is no doubt in my mind that the Leopard is the best built of those three. If you want to spend an extra $500k-$1M there are some good semi-custom builds that you should consider. I looked at some of those too as I could afford them but decided the Leopard gave the best return on investment.

[APage]

@CarlF thank you for your feedback. We’ve also done our homework and looked extensively at the other models mentioned i.e FP, Lagoon, Bali and entirely agree that Bali is strictly for coastal cruising and/chartering. Our intent is to spend 2.5 years shaking down the vessel while in FL and finally sail away for…well ever. I firmly agree that an extensive trial period is critical particularly as my husband is new to sailing and I want to make the transition as smooth and fun as possible. That’s not to say that all will go perfectly, as we all know this is an impossibility for any live aboard but I’d like to risk mitigate as much as possible. We initially were also interested in a FP (Tanna 47) but found the layout comparable to a 45. Not to mention I don’t prefer the backward facing lounge and several other design esthetics. While these weren’t deal breakers the sharp increase in purchase price in just over a year did us in as I flatly refuse to spent 120k more for the same boat on principle.

We fell in love with the layout of the Leopard 45 and with it just being the two of us, there’s little need for anything larger. While I’d prefer if the performance was slightly increased to accommodate a more brisk cruising speed (10-15knots vc 7-10knots) it’s not the end of the world. You know what they say, a sailor spends 80% of time at anchor so we tried to maintain a more realistic outlook on the space vs performance.

The recent build quality issues has resulted in an increased awareness on our part however. Our intent is to now arm ourselves with a list of known reoccurring issues, builder defects, etc as to better inform our surveyor and ourselves when we enter the market in 18months.

[CarlF]

Originally Posted by APage

The recent build quality issues has resulted in an increased awareness on our part however. Our intent is to now arm ourselves with a list of known reoccurring issues, builder defects, etc as to better inform our surveyor and ourselves when we enter the market in 18months.

One thing I'd suggest is to go to the Annapolis SailBoat show in October. There are many Leopard owners there who will give you a much better perspective than you will get from a few disgruntled people on YouTube.

I would also join the Leopard Catamaran Owners Group on Facebook (there's also a Leopard 45 group but I don't belong since I have a 50). This is where you'll see what the common maintenence issues are on Leopards and how best to fix it. I keep a list of all L50 problems. Although I've had very few of them happen to me.

And regardless of the survey, expect to spend $50,000-$100,000 after purchase on upgrades and end-of-life replacements. Things like replacing tired mattress foam that makes your back hurt. Or a higher capacity watermaker. If you are buying an ex-charter boat, expect to spend at least another $50-$100k more putting on all the things a private owner wants that aren't on charter boats -- like lithium batteries and solar panels.

Most Leopard owners on the East Coast of Florida have a lot of their upgrades done at JustCats in Dania Beach. I've been there four times and been very happy with the quality of the work and their knowledge of Leopards.

[jim King]

I actually prefer the 2020 version without the rooftop lounge. I have a Sunsail version of the Leopard 454 and find it sails better and the rigging is much better with the sheets mounted starboard and port it works as a jib preventer. I have chartered the 2021 version with the top lounge and found it usable for only about half an hour each day. The front lounge is much prefered. My boat comes up on phase out next month and I am wondering where to place her (Conch Charter?).