Leopard 45 or 50

[Shane450]

You will find many many more questions to ask other than size , spend some time do your research , there are some excellent posts on youtube around bluewater cats , what to look for and what to avoid

[3Kings]

I believe the Leopard design is fine for charter in the calm waters of the BVI and a few other ports. However, I know from the experience of other sailors that moving one of these "straight front cockpit designs" led to the smashing of the front straight cockpit glass during rough waters from the BVI to St Martin placing the yacht in peril.

For a trip like the one that you are describing I would think twice about taking this design in open waters with 20'+ swells. I also think the the manufacture, Roberts and Caine relies on China too much for their parts like the stainless and others which are often far inferior. These boats have been designed for those that put the "wow" factor above real sailboat and sea worthy design INMHO.

You needn't look much further than to the damage many Leopard's received from the 2017 Hurricane "Irma" to really understand the difference, and that there has been a major change in the quality of construction from one of the 4700's of the early 2000's (a sailing tank) to today's Leopards that are primarily built for chartering by sailors who are under power more than 50% of the time!

The question is, is it a charter yacht for the novice or is it a open water sailing yacht for an experienced blue water sailor? The right answer could not only protect your investment but your life!

[LifePart2]

Originally Posted by Stewie12

The bigger the better.

I totally disagree.

We have a Leopard 42 from 2001 and we love it. We would NOT want anything bigger - that just means bigger stuff to handle. Which means bigger equipment (and probably electric), which means more things to go wrong. And of course more expense for equipment and marinas.

And we certainly not short of space. There are only two of use, for goodness sake.

But ever bigger does seem to be the mantra these days. When we bought her 10 years ago we were the big boat in the neighbourhood. Now we are just average or less.

Whether you will do your first passage safely depends more on your abilities than on the size of your boat. Go get some instruction first if in any doubt. Or bring a skipper along with you for part of the journey.

My vote is for the smaller boat. YMMV.

[hukilaumike]

I was on a Leopard 50 crewed charter in the US and BVIs just this past March, right before the COVID shutdown. There were the six of us (charterers), as well as the Captain and Mate/Cook aboard. We all had plenty of room. That's a big boat. And while the Captain and Mate handled her well on their own (I do not pretend that I was much of a help), we were just island hopping.

And the boat was not a great sailer. Comfortable? For sure. But she was no speed demon and didn't point particularly well either. It was my first time on a big cat, and I was expecting double digit sails. Nope. The boat was heavily provisioned (as you will be for your transatlantic voyage), and the best she would do was about 8 knots. We wound up motor sailing and plain motoring a lot. My point is not that the Leopard is a bad boat (I think the opposite; she's beautifully designed and built), but that you shouldn't expect a fast crossing. Doing that with just two people, neither of whom has ever done a blue water passage before, sounds like an outright unpleasant if not dangerous plan.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by 3Kings

I believe the Leopard design is fine for charter in the calm waters of the BVI and a few other ports. However, I know from the experience of other sailors that moving one of these "straight front cockpit designs" led to the smashing of the front straight cockpit glass during rough waters from the BVI to St Martin placing the yacht in peril.

A single anecdotal incident of broken glass is evidence of what?

Originally Posted by 3Kings

For a trip like the one that you are describing I would think twice about taking this design in open waters with 20'+ swells.

I would think twice about taking any sailboat into 20'+ swells.

Originally Posted by 3Kings

I also think the the manufacture, Roberts and Caine relies on China too much for their parts like the stainless and others which are often far inferior. These boats have been designed for those that put the "wow" factor above real sailboat and sea worthy design INMHO.

55% of the worlds stainless comes from China. Are they using inferior grades like 304? You're going to have to be more specific because pretty much everyone uses stainless from China.

Originally Posted by 3Kings

You needn't look much further than to the damage many Leopard's received from the 2017 Hurricane "Irma" to really understand the difference, and that there has been a major change in the quality of construction from one of the 4700's of the early 2000's (a sailing tank) to today's Leopards that are primarily built for chartering by sailors who are under power more than 50% of the time!

LOL. Hurricane Irma was a category 5 hurricane. Please list sailboats that you believe wouldn't have received damage from one of the strongest Atlantic cat 5 hurricanes in recorded history.

[walkabout08]

I recently delivered a new 50 from Ft Lauderdale to Newport RI. Not my boat. A word of caution. Leopard does not deliver a new boat to high QAQC standards. This boat had cross fed diesel return lines, the wrong mainsail, a fancy Karver hook that exploded at the mast head. You are advised to plan a full month on the boat in Capetown to sort out the manufacturing deficiencies. FWIW the advice to hire a delivery captain for your trip north is really worth taking seriously unless you have thousands of offshore miles. All of this is applicable to either the 45 or the 50. Be advised these boats are meant to live aboard not to sail though they can within certain parameters. Carry lots of extra fuel, chances are you will use it all.

[sv Stella Maris]

Always choose the smallest tool that will do the intended job...

Now you need to answer what the job is...

But to answer your question specifically; the 50 will only make your ‘problem’ worse that you are considering to mitigate. Since the length to displacement ratio is very similar between both boats; you are literally discerning between a 45’ poorly navigating vessel versus a 50’ poorly navigating vessel.

What you actually need to ask is ‘Do I want the same volume, but increase my waterline to thus attain better sea handling ?’

Get the smaller one...everything is cheaper...including delivery to far off places you don’t want to do the passage to...hehe.

[CyKlop]

Having sailed and taught on Leopard 40, 45, and 50s, I can tell you that there are several things to consider (many other sailors can tell you these same things!).

1. The 50 sails quite a bit more nicely than the 45 and a LOT more nicely than the 40, especially when sailing close to the wind.

2. The 50 is a lot more boat to handle than the 45. I can single hand a 50, but there are times that I'm running around like a monkey who has drank a gallon of irish coffee (frenetic from the caffeine, drunk from the whiskey) and I would probably drop the sails and motor if single handed in inclement conditions. It is neither enjoyable nor safe even with all the lines led back to the helm station, just in case something goes wrong. Two handing it is doable. Plus it's a lot more powerful (yes, you can reef and take that power away, but the power is there and you know that at some point they're going to use it...)

3. Operating in close quarters. Cats with two engines are inherently more maneuverable than monos when in tight/close quarters. I'd motor a 50' cat over a 27' mono any day (and, no, I don't have problems with monos, just remarking on the benefits of two widely spaced engines). On the other hand, a 50 foot cat will find marinas "tighter" than a 45 or 40.

4. that extra 5 or 10 feet are going to make finding a place to keep it (or even temporarily dock it) that much more difficult and that much more expensive. Apparently 50' marks the point where marinas think you're extra rich.

5. Extra length = extra maintenance. Not just the extra 5 or 10 feet of deck, but everything is bigger, stronger, etc.

Having said all that, I love the 50. It's comfortable, sails quite nicely, though it's certainly no racer or even racer/cruiser - but that's not its mission anyway. Given that I had the money, I'd get the 50.

As with other people, I strongly suggest you get training, or at least familiarization, with the boat via a knowledgeable and experienced Leopard skipper, then do some short passages in it while you get used to it and shake it out. There is a really really bad feeling when you're 2 days from the nearest port and you find out that something major has broken and you have no idea how to fix it or deal with it.

[AlexTurin]

Originally Posted by 3Kings

I believe the Leopard design is fine for charter in the calm waters of the BVI and a few other ports. However, I know from the experience of other sailors that moving one of these "straight front cockpit designs" led to the smashing of the front straight cockpit glass during rough waters from the BVI to St Martin placing the yacht in peril.

For a trip like the one that you are describing I would think twice about taking this design in open waters with 20'+ swells. I also think the the manufacture, Roberts and Caine relies on China too much for their parts like the stainless and others which are often far inferior. These boats have been designed for those that put the "wow" factor above real sailboat and sea worthy design INMHO.

You needn't look much further than to the damage many Leopard's received from the 2017 Hurricane "Irma" to really understand the difference, and that there has been a major change in the quality of construction from one of the 4700's of the early 2000's (a sailing tank) to today's Leopards that are primarily built for chartering by sailors who are under power more than 50% of the time!

The question is, is it a charter yacht for the novice or is it a open water sailing yacht for an experienced blue water sailor? The right answer could not only protect your investment but your life!

This is very serious accusation! Look this video: https://youtu.be/2d6sFidGOho from 11th minute Leopard Delivery Capitan (he crossed ocean 22 times) answered question about forward cockpit.

[AlexTurin]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I believe the 2021 production slots for the Leopard 50 are gone or almost gone. So this is likely an academic question.

And if you are unsure between the two of them - I think the 45 is a better choice. Especially as you are inexperienced. And it gives you the option to move up to a bigger boat in the future. If you got the 50 now where would you go?

Two weeks ago they had slots in June. But I decided to stay at 45th. Thank you for advice!

[CarlF]

3Kings, I really wish you'd post some details about the "glass breakage". Was it a Leopard or another cat with "front straight cockpit glass"? Was the breakage just a crack or did it allow flooding?

Statements like yours on a public forum is how unfair rumors get started about a brand - and they can circulate for years. I certainly don't know of any Leopard 45 or 50 having a catastrophic failure of the forward glass. Does anyone else?

I also don't know of any example of flooding of the forward cockpit causing a Leopard to get into trouble. If forward cockpits were that unseaworthy, I don't think you'd see a forward cockpit in Chris White's Atlantics -- which are designed for ocean passages even in high latitudes. Nor, for that matter, in Gunboats.

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/a57-recent

[sv Stella Maris]

Also, PM me if you would like specific kit thoughts. We are a family of 8 aboard and make all our power and water without a diesel genset...

...After being aboard a refit this week I am working on, I have been blown away by their new Relion bank...we pulled -163a @ 12v from a 1,200ah system and the voltage was 13.17 !!!!! I’ve read the data, but to see it in person was unreal !

I am installing a 40+ gal/hr Cruise RO for them, what a joy of an electrical system (wish it was 24v, but hey)...

[smj]

I can’t see the forward cockpit adding to a boats seaworthiness, but I can see ways that it would detract from its seaworthiness.

[Barra]

I don't think you should be lumping a chris white forward cockpit design that is clearly designed for ocean passage making in with a leopard design that is clearly designed for drinks at anchor.

All boats are compromises and the compromise to that sundowner spot is it is undoubtedly a weak spot in certain extreme conditions. Possibly catastrophically so.

It may have contributed to the loss of all onboard a 44 on delivery in the Indian ocean a few years back. We will never know for sure.

What we do know is it is a compromise for comfort over safety. To pretend otherwise is just deluding yourself.

Originally Posted by CarlF

3Kings, I really wish you'd post some details about the "glass breakage". Was it a Leopard or another cat with "front straight cockpit glass"? Was the breakage just a crack or did it allow flooding?

Statements like yours on a public forum is how unfair rumors get started about a brand - and they can circulate for years. I certainly don't know of any Leopard 45 or 50 having a catastrophic failure of the forward glass. Does anyone else?

I also don't know of any example of flooding of the forward cockpit causing a Leopard to get into trouble. If forward cockpits were that unseaworthy, I don't think you'd see a forward cockpit in Chris White's Atlantics -- which are designed for ocean passages even in high latitudes. Nor, for that matter, in Gunboats.

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/a57-recent

[smj]

I ran the numbers many moons ago and completely filled, the Leopard forward cockpit holds about 6300 lbs of water, if I remember correctly.
So if your ok with a full sized Ford F-250 pick up truck suddenly parking itself on your fore deck, then your good to go.