Leopard 50 OR Privilege 510

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Composite chain plates are the way to go they are part of the structure and spread the loads much better.


I believe Kelsall pioneered these in self builds.

Agreed, composite chain plates are great for self builds, but given that the OP will be having a yard build this boat, the Titanium plates would be much easier to adapt to existing hull designs. I doubt if any of these builders would be amenable to altering their hull design to incorporate composite chain plates. All the boats we're talking about are semi-custom - meaning you work with the existing hull and bulkheads and fit everything else in between.

[Mike427]

Thanks guys all very good points.

I flew down to the see the Leopard 50 awhile ago and we loved it but I just want to make 100% sure.

The main reason I am hooked on these boats is sailing position and the fly deck feature. I don’t want to sail from the top deck and not be able to see cockpit area.

I like the forward lounge on the Leopard as long it drains good in bad weather.

I am professionally trained in mechanics and electrical systems so I plan to fix my boat mostly myself if all possible. That being said I don’t want to spend time fixing a brand new boat all the time.

Some brokers have also told me to NOT buy new and get a boat a few years old that has been outfitted and the bugs worked out.

Thoughts ????

Thankyou Again for all your comments and thoughts it really helps as I don’t know anyone in the Catamaran world.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Mike427

Thanks guys all very good points.

I flew down to the see the Leopard 50 awhile ago and we loved it but I just want to make 100% sure.

The main reason I am hooked on these boats is sailing position and the fly deck feature. I don’t want to sail from the top deck and not be able to see cockpit area.

I like the forward lounge on the Leopard as long it drains good in bad weather.

I am professionally trained in mechanics and electrical systems so I plan to fix my boat mostly myself if all possible. That being said I don’t want to spend time fixing a brand new boat all the time.

Some brokers have also told me to NOT buy new and get a boat a few years old that has been outfitted and the bugs worked out.

Thoughts ????

Thankyou Again for all your comments and thoughts it really helps as I don’t know anyone in the Catamaran world.

Brokers don't make any money on new boats. All new boats could have some bugs, but that's why you take a shakedown cruise to ensure that everything is performing in actual sailing conditions. In your case, a shakedown cruise from Knysna. S.A. to Capetown would be the norm. That way. in case something did need revising, you're not too far away to get it resolved. It's a shame you didn't check out the Knysna factory while you were down there - it's apparently just down the road from Leopard although it's a much smaller yard - Knysna only does four boats a year so they're tiny compared to Leopard but they do provide a boat that's fully fitted out and ready to go when you pick it up, thereby avoiding all the aftermarket delays inherent with a Leopard. It's not a bad idea to hire an experienced captain that knows the boat during your shakedown cruise. He can clue you into how the boat operates and will indentify any deficiencies.

[CarlF]

There's an active Facebook group for Leapord Owners and another for Leapord 50 owners. Join them both. You'll learn a lot.

Watch the Happy Together videos (search Happy Together catamaran). Also find the videos of SV Sunrise. He had some serious warranty problems (but still loves the boat).

Buying a brokerage Leapord 50 is probably a bad idea. There are few (none?) on the market. In a few more years at the 5 year point you'll start to see ex-charter 50's on the brokerage market - you save a lot of money up front with an ex-charter boat but there's been a lot of wear and tear that justifies the low price.

In my experience, boats of this complexity and size - new or brokerage - always have a repair list - and you are lucky to keep it to one page. Fix one thing and another will pop up. For the most part the things that break are minor - and not boat brand specific. And for most problems there's no difference between production boats and semi-custom. These boats tend to use the same engines, same pumps, same circuit breakers, same windlasses, etc.

I have a friend who bought a Leopard 51 powerboat four years ago. The only warranty repair he had was a window leak that everyone assumed was a bad seal but when Leapord fixed it under warranty it turned out to be two screws that had been mis-threaded. He had some electronics problems too - but that wasn't Leopard. Of course, some new Leopards have many more problems. Leapord's delivered over 2500 cats. Even if only 1% have serious problems that's 25 scary stories on the Internet.

Many people are concerned about the forward cockpit but there is no verified story of that getting anyone into trouble. And it does have extra large drains. While Leopards sent to the US come on a ship the others are delivered on their own bottoms - hundreds of boats. Presumably Leopard would long ago have gotten rid of the forward cockpit if they were losing delivery crews (or the boat being delivered) to a flooding forward cockpit.

With any "new to you" boat, the most important thing is to give yourself enough time between delivery and a major voyage to shake it down. I would allow 2-3 months after delivery for work before your first extended trip. Then plan to return to Leapord after six months of cruising for another 2-3 months of repairs and upgrades you've decided you need before starting your world tour.

[schoonerdog]

In my opinion, Privilege is made more for owner, Leopards/Moorings are made more for charter as their primary target. The difference is the quality of the finishing and things that are incorporated, for instance a live aboard longer term food storage is necessary point, the Privilege from what I remember has a slide out food pantry. Obviously many Privileges are in charter, and have been very successful there, but no one matches the success and deliberate design of the Leopard for the charter market. Were it me though and money were not object, I would buy something that is made for what you want, a family going on an exploration of the world, and would forgo the typical plastic boat. I would personally buy the Exploracat 52. Fiberglass catamarans are very fragile for things like gelcoat damage, and I see most after a passage spending a lot of time in yard repairing their gelcoat or repairing their broken carbon fiber if it's a higher end boat. My previous catamaran, PDQ, which is a great fiberglass catamaran, made their boats with an aluminum rub rail that extends beyond the hull itself and works as both a toe rail and rub rail. My fenders slipped during a powerful storm and the aluminum simply endured hitting against a steel bolt that was jutting out of a piling we were tied to. Inside it sounded awful, and should that bolt have hit the hull it would have ripped it like paper. I've seen an exposed fiberglass hull deck joint get shattered under very light pressure when the boat moved beyond its fender and hit a piling, no storm, just a small wake and a crunch sound as the fiberglass gave way. Were I doing what you are doing, I would opt for the superior abrasion resistance and ease of maintenance of aluminum vs Glass Reinforced Plastic.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Composite chain plates are the way to go they are part of the structure and spread the loads much better.


I believe Kelsall pioneered these in self builds.

I think Balance has these. The 482 is about $1.08 mill or $1.25 mill nicely equipped. They can be ordered with boards or keels. And epoxy built too, I think.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I think Balance has these. The 482 is about $1.08 mill or $1.25 mill nicely equipped. They can be ordered with boards or keels. And epoxy built too, I think.

This displays a level of technical advancement that sets manufacturers like Balance apart from the mass market builders. Details like this that go unmentioned in the more fashion driven bikini clad maiden on the flybridge marketing of the majority.

[Hartings]

‘Brokers don’t make any money on new boats’ - what a load of tosh !

[ol1970]

These are also two of the boats on our radar as well. The L50 (Performance version with no upper lounge) and the owners version Privilège. Ordering a new 510 with the options we would choose would be $1.9M USD with today’s exchange rate. A L50P is $1.2M plus about $300k of aftermarket upgrades once you take delivery. A Balance 526 is right at $2M. So all within shouting distance of one another. There are cats that others have mentioned as well, but if I had to choose today i would go 1) Balance 2) Privilège 3) L50P and be extremely happy with any of them. I sort of think about it like “hey we probably are only going to do this trip once so let’s get exactly what we want”.

The only question that pops into my mind is will there really be $200k in operating costs annually for these boats? Just because they are way more expensive up front I don’t see that equating to 10% when compared with say a $1M FP Saba 50 (or something similar). I’m thinking boats of this size will all cost close to $10k month to operate but I most definitely could be wrong.

[Cayuse51]

We (my wife, daughter, and I) bought an Outremer 51 new, took delivery in La Grande Motte, and sailed it around the world. I would certainly consider better sailing boats if that is truly your goal. It is a long way around the world and you may surprised that there are many places with light air. You will spend lots of time motoring in a heavy cat. Get the larger fuel tank option. The other advantage of a light, easy sailing boat is that it takes less sail area to move the boat (jib vs spinnaker, etc.). This means lighter loads to deal with and easier sailing. Also, FWIW, our aftermarket experience with Outremer was excellent. They were always available to help us with the few issues that came up with the boat.

[Sand crab]

They say the B526 is $1.44 mill base price or $1.65 mill for the “fully cruise equipped” version so not quite $2 mill. Also interesting to note Is that the Balance is almost half the weight of the Leopard. 12,000 kg vs 20,000 kg.
Is this the actual base price of the Leopard. I do like Balances’ price up front but I’m not in that market. I have smaller pockets.

[Open-d]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

I am a big Leopard fan, owned a 44 and just got a new 40, and the 50 would be my dream cruise boat. However, have a look at the Balance catamarans. Really nice, I have been to the St Francis factory, and they build great boats. Epoxy, light, fast, customizable!

Is Epoxy better than the alternatives?

[ol1970]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

They say the B526 is $1.44 mill base price or $1.65 mill for the “fully cruise equipped” version so not quite $2 mill. Also interesting to note Is that the Balance is almost half the weight of the Leopard. 12,000 kg vs 20,000 kg.
Is this the actual base price of the Leopard. I do like Balances’ price up front but I’m not in that market. I have smaller pockets.

I have priced both out, you can definitely get them cheaper with a lesser spec, but the way I’d spec them to go on an extended cruise would be $1.5 for the Leopard and just shy of $2 for the balance 526. Base price is just something meant to catch your eye. The 510 comes much more Cruise ready in a standard spec.

[Sand crab]

Can you explain the $350,000 worth of options to take a “cruise equipped” B 526 to the $2 mill price tag. And what are the cruise equipped features over base?
I’m not arguing with you, I just want to know because new boat prices and options are usually not published.
Thanks
Bobber

[Yihang]

I think Phil mentioned carbon mast is about 60k? or 80k. If you also carbon the roof and boom that's probably 120k right there.

I saw a couple on youtube sailing the Outremer 5x which is also around 2 million. Seemed they usually had crew onboard and had to use a winch to furl the jib in. Above 45 feet for a couple to a small family seems unnecessary especially in a balance since the layout is almost the same in their smaller boat.

Another couple went from an outremer 5x to a 4x because they felt the 5x was too large for them. A extra million is probably not a lot for people in this price range but performance cats at this size is starting to be a handful to handle, so it seems.

Now when I look at a Boreal or Sirius it looks like they are giving them away.