Leopard VS Lagoon

[CatNewBee]

Modern production Cats are modular built, they mold the hulls and fit the IKEA style furniture building block before gluing the deck on top. The furniture is almost square plywood, some parts are glued to reinforce the connection and some are just Lego like stick together and fixed by screws. The whole thing is then screwed to laminated plywood bars on the hull. The hinges and locks are just camper quality / home furniture / DIY-stores / IKEA sub-standard.

They are not built for movements on the road or in the water and rigidity.
Also fashion comes into account: more sharp square angles instead of safe round angles that prevent injuries in bouncing high seas etc. This applies to all production brands including Leopards.

Another no-go for me is a forward cockpit with a door and a bathtub, a R&C design I would not welcome on passages on my boat. I know, Lagoons have similar areas upfront, but at least there is no door that invites waves into the salon.

All production cats nowadays are built mainly for charter businesses with 5 years of exploitation in 1 week coastal cruising trips, not for liveaboard usage and long ocean passages. They sacrifice storage space to as many berths and heads they potentially can fit in to maximize charter profit.

Reduce noise and squeeking is not the man goal either.

If you buy one of those, you'll need to re-fit it to your needs anyway. Some noise sources are a easy-fix, some are very annoying - like the fuel tanks under the berths aft, that create horrible noise of bouncing and splashing fuel when not completely full or almost empty in wavy conditions underway, you appreciate than the sqeeking of the furniture as a minor issue.

Some of the noise sources are a easy fix, if you can locate them, some are very difficult to eliminate. But the good news is, your brain gets used to them and you simply stop hearing them after a while.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Well, the post I responded to with a sweet undertone sounded very different:

Thats a very bold statement.


With regards to the lack of negative comments from Leopards owners, maybe I can give you another perspective:
Have you compared the production figures for FP, Lagoon, Leopard over the last 15-20 years?


Just look at the number of used sailboats on yachtworld:

year 1995-1999
Lagoon: 18
FP: 17
R&C: 2

year 2000-2004
Lagoon: 38
FP: 33
R&C: 21

year 2005-2010
Lagoon: 140
FP: 52
R&C: 21

year 2011-2015:
Lagoon 197
FP 48
Leopard 60

Completely unscientified research I know but good enough for me.


R&C is now trendy because people see them sail all over the world, but thats just the effect of the sunsail / moorings deal. Before Moorings and Sunsail changed to RC Leopard for their preferred cat supplier R&C was a tiny builder with limited success in the market.
Without this deal I doubt we would even talk about leopards these days as they would be as important as for example Outremer.


none of this implies anything about Leopards in terms of former or recent build quality.

But you can clearly see why there are no negative comments on older R&Cs. Because they don't exist in significant numbers.

Leopard has produced over 1200 catamarans. That’s a few more than Gemini produced and trust me there are plenty of negative comments concerning Gemini’s. Maybe less Leopards sell on the used market because less owners want to sell as they’re happy with their choice of boat? To me mass produced doesn’t always mean quality, in fact usually the opposite.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by smj

Leopard has produced over 1200 catamarans. That’s a few more than Gemini produced and trust me there are plenty of negative comments concerning Gemini’s. Maybe less Leopards sell on the used market because less owners want to sell as they’re happy with their choice of boat? To me mass produced doesn’t always mean quality, in fact usually the opposite.

Just to make myself clear. I'm not saying that FP or Lagoon are better than Leopard. Each has its markets, each has its strong points and quirks.




But the person I responded to said that he found no negative comments of Leopard owners, especially of older ones.
And I just gave him one reason:
There are not many older Leopards around, compared to FP & Lagoon. And thats a fact nobody can deny.


You basically agreed, as you say R&C have 1200 builds. R&C website says they have an output of just over 3 builds per week, which leads to the conclusion that over half of their produced fleet is still under 5 years old. My guess is that 80+% are younger than 15 years.

With the vast majority being in charter this just means there are not many bad stories to be heard because they are not with private owners yet. Charter bases don't air bad stories.

Geminis on the other hand are virtually all in private ownership, some are what 30 years old, and all were made to a much lower price.




Again, not saying Leopards have bad quality. just saying they are -compared to Lagoon and FP- still relatively new kids on the block in terms of mass products in private ownership.
If I remember correctly Leopards have shown up in significant numbers on Yachtworld just a few years ago as Sunsail renewed their fleets. Before that they were virtually non-existent in the used market, which implies they had a very small market penetration compared to Lagoon and FP.


Looking at the figures I am actually surprised & sad to see FP numbers so low compared to Lagoon and on decline compared to the overall numbers.


Edit: I just re-read the R&C website. They say they have built over 1300 cats so far. On the same page they say they have supplied over 1300 cats to TUI marine charter fleets. Which supports my point: they haven't had much private exposure, except the ex-charter boats.

[LeeV]

All three (Leo, FP and Lagoon) offer something of interest to lots of folks. For those of us in the middle to lower income (!) who can't afford Catanas, Outremer, HH, etc.... the "big 3" offer cruising or liveaboard possibilities, either new or used.

As I've previously said, my wife thinks the Leopard 45 is "it!" I like the boat, have sailed it and would have no hesitation sailing it across any ocean - it's a beast. On the other hand, it has a sterile look to it. I can find faults in all 3 of the production made cats; none are perfect or "that' much better than the others. Everybody should choose what they like, but nobody should think they're buying a perfect boat!

As I've said, I follow all three owner's groups, and this one has shown an equal amount of issues on Leopards. For anybody who hasn't joined, you should:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/LeopardCat/info

Respectfully,

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by LeeV

All three (Leo, FP and Lagoon) offer something of interest to lots of folks. For those of us in the middle to lower income (!) who can't afford Catanas, Outremer, HH, etc.... the "big 3" offer cruising or liveaboard possibilities, either new or used.

As I've previously said, my wife thinks the Leopard 45 is "it!" I like the boat, have sailed it and would have no hesitation sailing it across any ocean - it's a beast. On the other hand, it has a sterile look to it. I can find faults in all 3 of the production made cats; none are perfect or "that' much better than the others. Everybody should choose what they like, but nobody should think they're buying a perfect boat!

As I've said, I follow all three owner's groups, and this one has shown an equal amount of issues on Leopards. For anybody who hasn't joined, you should:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/LeopardCat/info

Respectfully,

Amen!

Do what is required to keep the admiral happy. Happy wife happy life.

[LeeV]

Well, don't for a minute think we're buying a Leopard 45; that price is way beyond our means. It's not just the purchase price; I could probably save for another 2 years and afford to finance the boat, but the fuel, upkeep, dockage, repairs all get exponentially higher with a larger boat. Unfortunately, I'm in the working class :-)

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by LeeV

Well, don't for a minute think we're buying a Leopard 45; that price is way beyond our means. It's not just the purchase price; I could probably save for another 2 years and afford to finance the boat, but the fuel, upkeep, dockage, repairs all get exponentially higher with a larger boat. Unfortunately, I'm in the working class :-)

Then never let her aboard such a boat !

Mine doesn't tolerate anything above 42ft, so I'm safe In fact she loved our FP Mahe 36 the most.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Then never let her aboard such a boat !

Mine doesn't tolerate anything above 42ft, so I'm safe In fact she loved our FP Mahe 36 the most.

I know, I know! She also likes to go out to eat now and then so I think we’re safe! I do like the looks of the Astrea 42, but her price is way up there as well. We’ll head to Annapolis to look at the 3 40’ers. And then consider used!

[FlyingScot]

Boat shows are dangerous to the finances.
Best to go years before if you plan to buy used.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by LeeV

I know, I know! She also likes to go out to eat now and then so I think we’re safe! I do like the looks of the Astrea 42, but her price is way up there as well. We’ll head to Annapolis to look at the 3 40’ers. And then consider used!

Well our potential shopping list is actually quite small: FP Mahe, FP Lipari, Lagoon 380, Lagoon 400.

I looked at the Lucia, Astrea, 40, 42 but to me these boats look like a floating Ikea showroom with some sails for shade.

But then we aren't on the outlook for a new boat anyway, more the contrary.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Boat shows are dangerous to the finances.
Best to go years before if you plan to buy used.

Yep, this will be my 16th show, so I have tons of notes!

If I could find a nice used Lipari or Voyage I'd be happy, but still have to put $$ into it to make it bluewater capable/safe.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by LeeV

Yep, this will be my 16th show, so I have tons of notes!

If I could find a nice used Lipari or Voyage I'd be happy, but still have to put $$ into it to make it bluewater capable/safe.

I can’t imagaine how much it costs to go to 16 shows. Would pay for a lot of boat upgrades. I went once in 2008 to the Miami shoe. I ended up buying a 2008 Leopard 40. Not disappointed.
Considered the Lagoon 380, 400, 410 and FP Mahe 36.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I can’t imagaine how much it costs to go to 16 shows. Would pay for a lot of boat upgrades. I went once in 2008 to the Miami shoe. I ended up buying a 2008 Leopard 40. Not disappointed.
Considered the Lagoon 380, 400, 410 and FP Mahe 36.

Well, we live near Annapolis and have family in Ft. Lauderdale. We had free tickets from boat reps for the last four shows, so if tickets averaged $18 for each of us, I spent $27/year for great entertainment and research. I’m not sure how many upgrades you could do for that. In the interim I sailed 3 different trimarans and loved them all, while preparing for my future cat, which I’m sure I’ll love too! I don’t mind waiting to figure out which one. The Leopard 40 is on our list by the way.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by LeeV

Well, we live near Annapolis and have family in Ft. Lauderdale. We had free tickets from boat reps for the last four shows, so if tickets averaged $18 for each of us, I spent $27/year for great entertainment and research. I’m not sure how many upgrades you could do for that. In the interim I sailed 3 different trimarans and loved them all, while preparing for my future cat, which I’m sure I’ll love too! I don’t mind waiting to figure out which one. The Leopard 40 is on our list by the way.

I think I spent more going once. $450/night South Beach hotel and expensive dinners and drinks.

Good luck with your search.

[Thumbs Up]

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong but the minimum wage in France is at least 4 times higher than in South Africa. Wouldn't this translate into the ability of SA to build much better boats to the same price point?