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ozsailer · 05-08-2020, 03:01

Gday Alsail.
First off before I comment, I own a Lagoon 440 for the very simple fact that it suits our needs and wants perfectly. Just a few observations I have made over the years. When people say they want a performance cat, what do they really want. Do they want to cruise oceans, lakes or just coastal. Do they want speed but a good cruiser as well. Do performance orientated people want basic layout or a good level of comfort. Does the performance sailer want a covered helm area or is happy in the open. Does the performance sailer really understand what they want. Do performance orientated cat owners really understand the speeds they are limited to in a seaway in limited conditions and how often this occurs and how uncomfortable it can be at speed especially for the crew. As mentioned overloading a performance boat will drastically reduce it performance so what do you gain. Even before you start I would be looking at what your definition of performance is. I suspect many have a different idea. Define what you want and then go for that, it may surprise you.
Reading your post you really dont say what you want to do with the vessel, who do you want to sail with and where you want to sail
other than to say you like the look of certain models. You also dont state your experience which plays a major choice in your decision. Hate to say it but looks arent everything. I really dont think anyone can answer your question till you know the answer to the above questions.

Greg H
lagoon 440
Oz

alsail · 05-08-2020, 12:57

Hey mate. I think I already said a family of 4 and the plan is to go offshore and live aboard. My experience is moderate, monohull only. The looks of the boat is very important to me, and , like someone said here, usually a good looking boat sails well. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but, what I mean by good looks is a sleek, low windage catamaran. I know Catenza will never dream to match lagoon 440 in comfort but I am prepared to sacrifice that as I want a boat that sails well . Like fxykty says, my best bet is a longer waterline similar model to Catenza.
I actually like a simple, spartan boat, I don't need AC, microwave, beautiful furniture , electric furlers, first class electronics etc etc. I am experienced enough to know all these will be just a maintenance nightmare later on. I also understand saving wait on a cat is paramount, so I am prepared to sacrifice here, but I do not want to weigh every shopping bag and cut my toothbrush in half, as someone said before me.

tomfl · 05-08-2020, 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozsailer

DNIP

When people say they want a performance cat, what do they really want.

SNIP

As I posted much earlier and this post confirms not everyone has the same definition of performance. To me the first thing I would look for in a performance boat is a square top. Also things like the ability to fly big head sails but also have a small self tacking working jib for when the spaghetti hits the fan. This is just the rig. Another tell for me is the head. I have a composting head which means no holding tank or through hulls; not to mention a big weight savings. As I posted earlier an electric head not only adds weight but also requires a bigger house bank and some way to charge it. Outboards tend to weigh less than inboards and don't require shaft, struts, prop, and zincs to deal with. This is suppose to be a performance boat and that means sailing; if you want a performance power boat look elsewhere.

But more important than anything else in a performance boat is the skill level, and to a lesser extent life style of the owner/skipper. How often to you envision checking the sails, adjusting the sheets and traveler, see what you are doing to the VMG, checking the weather to play the systems, and a host of other things needed to make sure your performance boat is performing up to it's potential. And not just the skipper but the admiral and crew needs to buy into the keep the sails trimmed philosophy.

I still thing the biggest mistake most folks make when buying a boat is buying a boat for what they think they want to do; not what they actually wind up doing on a boat.

alsail · 05-08-2020, 14:28

Great comment, I will tell you my thoughts : I owned a ketch that doesn't like sailing in anything bellow 12kts. A passage is a different story, but when you are coastal or up in the islands, you wanna go out sailing on a beautiful day, which precisely means winds from 5 to 15. So a light air performance is very very important to me. I also absolutely hate to start the engines. I wanna be able to sail everywhere, I wanna trim the sails every 3 minutes, I want to sail upwind. Sailing up wind performance is very very important to me.
I will never consider a condo cat. That doesn't mean they are not good boats for whomever like them, I want different.

tomfl · 05-08-2020, 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by alsail

SNIP

I want to sail upwind.

SNIP

Sailing cats upwind is very different than sailing monohulls upwind. It is done by looking at the chart plotter and finding the best VMG. While it is not good to pinch a monohull they generally have their best VMG sailing fairly close to the wind while falling off ten or fifteen degrees in a cat often results in not only a much better VMG but often results in a more sea kindly ride. Falling off in a monohull can result in a more uncomfortable ride as the waves are hitting the boat more abeam. Even in a condomaran falling off usually has good results. These are general rules and every boat is different.

Heath68 · 05-08-2020, 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by GRIT

"Big C Marine" is the company my wife started, to build boats. On hiatus now.

Cheers.
Paul.

Thanks Grit, I was interested in your comments in light of you sailing a 15m cat and thought it might be your boat so i could put your comments in perspective [emoji4]

GRIT · 05-08-2020, 19:23

Heath68.

No trouble. I didn't notice it there, until you mentioned it. It was a little confusing... fixed now.

Cheers.
Paul.

Heath68 · 05-08-2020, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausnp84

Again though, it comes down to how much you want to carry around. Microwave? Generator? Dive tanks and comp? Ice maker? All nice to have on board, but not what I’d call necessary for long term cruising. Hell, the original owner of Catenza didn't have an oven fitted as they didn't deem it necessary for South Pacific cruising (again, horses for courses. Having kids / hitting colder weather would absolutely mean an oven would make sense)

Back to the 2t limit though - nothing you’ve listed really breaks the bank. Magma BBQ is 5kg, 100w flexible solar panels are 2-3kg each, inflatable SUPs are 10kg (give or take, inc pump), watermaker is 30kg (Spectra Ventura, inc water filter housings), printer is 3kg, alcohol is... well haha 50-60kgs, etc etc I'm pretty sure you could kit a boat out with 2t of stuff or 20t of stuff... depending on the size of the boat, your bank balance and what you deem necessary to go cruising.

I’m not disagreeing with you that long term cruising requires a lot of stuff (can you ever have too many spare nuts and bolts?) - I just feel it’s possible to long term cruise comfortably with a 2t payload.

N

The other reason i brought this up was to consider how much the fuel and water capacity of a boat eats into this 2t guide... a FP Helia 44 holds 1,141kgs of fuel and water, a Soana 47 1,482kg and a St Francis 50 a whopping 2,082kgs.. leaving little spare on a 2t limit.
I'm not suggesting you would run round often with full tanks but if you did this might leave little room for anything else on some catamarans and its an often overlooked part of the calculation. I was hoping that 2t was on top of whatever the tanks held..

GRIT · 05-08-2020, 19:59

With fuel coming in at just under 1kg a litre, I doubt you'll find a performance cat, of 5.5 tonnes, having much more than 400kg of fuel tankage aboard. Add to that a maximum of another 400kg of water, and you've got 800kg. You're more likely to find about half, or less, of the above numbers, in volume of liquids. 400kg of fuel and water, combined.

Light boats don't have to motor often.

Cheers.
Paul.

**Tupaia** · 05-08-2020, 22:42

We have fuel tankage of 240 litres and sail with 150-200 litres of water.

fxykty · 05-08-2020, 23:32

Our O55L has 400 litres of fuel and 440 (including the hot water tank) of water. I believe the O45 and O55L are the same or similar, the S models slightly more on both. New generation models I’m not sure.

Catenza has more water and less fuel, which makes sense with outboards. I believe half tanks are included in the payload and half in the base displacement.

Similarly sized (length) accommodation-focused cats can have 3 or 4 times as much fuel (and larger motors) and double or more water.

Sailing upwind is not just a function of angle but also of drag - hydrodynamic and aerodynamic. And of comfort in a seaway. Higher performance cruising catamarans definitely win on the drag factors and maybe yes, maybe no for comfort in a seaway.

Different boats for different folks.

ausnp84 · 06-08-2020, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by alsail

Great comment, I will tell you my thoughts : I owned a ketch that doesn't like sailing in anything bellow 12kts. A passage is a different story, but when you are coastal or up in the islands, you wanna go out sailing on a beautiful day, which precisely means winds from 5 to 15. So a light air performance is very very important to me. I also absolutely hate to start the engines....That doesn't mean they are not good boats for whomever like them, I want different.

I’m with you on this. Had a lightweight, slippery sloop that I sailed on/off anchor and that would do 6kts in 10kts. Awesome. Then I thought “bigger is better!!” and built a big steel ketch... that wouldn’t move in under 20kts of breeze. This time I’m going smaller and lightweight. I don’t need three heads and four double cabins, or 1000lt of water and fuel, or massive loadings, or a big displacement that requires motoring everywhere and burning all that diesel. I also need a boat that can do bluewater BUT that only means a trip down to the Canaries and then two weeks across the Atlantic. After that it’s all coastal sailing and living aboard in the warm sunshine.

Outboards, lightweight materials, smaller tankage. I hadn’t thought about swapping the usual pump toilet for a composting one (thanks for the earlier comment on it). The boat needs new sails so I’ll be getting a bit roach / flat top main, and flat cut jib for fast-tacking upwind work, and a big offwind sail for downwind runs.

Would I love to have Catenza or a Bav Open 40? Hell yes! Do I want to get going in the next 12 months rather than working another 5 years to fund a great big boat? Yup.

Anyway, back to Catenza. Is the OP off to view it?

N