Lightning prevention system.

[s/v Jedi]

The cone of protection is an established, accepted principle. Uncertainties are for which point attracts a strike, but any of those points provide the cone of protection when they can safely guide the strike to ground.

A direct strike is easy to spot on a boat: when your antenna is gone, or you see some drops of molten stainless steel from the antenna whip then you got the direct strike. If only equipment stopped functioning without physical damage, then it was probably due to a surge / transient.

For a wellhead… that’s a hefty plate I think. It may be able to conduct the current without visible damage.

The pointy end is supposed to be able to bleed off ions quicker than a blunt point. The attraction to pine trees (needles) and trees that carry leafs with pointy ends is clear from statistics. A tree, even when lower than a nearby higher mast on a sailboat will often get the strike with the boat still having damage from the transient (think EMP).

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

It is speculation/anecdotal, but speculation based on observation and evaluation, and anecdotal in that many, many well repairmen have told the me the same 'story'. i.e. wells getting hit with no other apparent damage to any other nearby objects or people.

And I do know evidence can be hard to find. On a separate occasion, the b-i-l's pole barn (actually a 30 x 36 'garage') was hit, with no significant' damage. Reason we know? His b-i-l was inside when it happened. Said a fireball shot across the floor. He was unhurt but shaken (actually crapped his pants). When we checked th place for damage, the only thing we found was a pencil eraser sized burn on the side of the 'barn' where a metal fence post was leaning, Actually tack-welded the post to the siding.

And you are absolutely right. "Lots of weird things can happen with lightning."

The idea pumps get fried, is not in question.

Of course, they are also excellent ground rods connected to the electrical grid.

Unless the well head is blasted/melted or otherwise destroyed, just a pump failure suggests it was likely not a direct hit.

[dannc]

We had a heavy rain storm with thunder and lightning. The rain was so bad, Starlink was not working for a few minutes. Had that happen when we were on cable. Yeah, you read that right. Best I could figure is that at some point the Internet via cable went out on microwave and heavy rain would block the signal.

The following was more usually seen on the DSL connections than Starllink or cell. If we where getting lightning between us and the city, I would loose my VPN connection to work. Best guess was that the lightning was hitting the ground, but maybe it was EMP, and causing the connection to go out enough to kill the VPN but not noticeable for other traffic. However, yesterday, when Starlink was up and the storms were between me and city, the VPN was dropping. At some point, Starlink comes to ground, and I have heard there are a couple of ground stations in my area which happen to be near the cities, but you would think they would be fiber links. The VPN drop is not as bad as over DSL though and it only seems to affect my work VPN not the VPN we use.

We live on the top of some high ground in the forest. When we were buying the place, I noticed the trees on the high ground were smaller than other trees lower down. Figured it was either rock near the surface limiting growth or death by lightning. After living here for awhile, the answer is lightning is the tree killer. We have had numerous trees killed by lightning. they get to a certain size and they eventually get hit. That and windstorms. No obvious reason as to why some trees get hit and not others. Often it is trees that are not the tallest in the sky that get hit.

I have seen lightning hits here, at the NC coast, and a couple of places in Florida. Scary stuff it is and a lightning strike on a boat is a big concern to me.

Later,
Dan

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by sparau

Isn't that self contradictory?
You are saying that it will take the easiest path, i.e. the most conductive. Or in the shoes example my finger zapping someone rather than arcing 2 meters to the ground.
So the timber mast isn't like a tree, it's dry and a good insulator so shouldn't get used as a path over the air. Good point about the dyneema being wet though.

The problem is that it is really up to the electrons which path to take. Once they find a good path it's a bum rush of electrons as the path is established.

I believe the whole idea in preventions is trying to keep the static charge from building up on the boat. The smaller the static field the boat is creating as it passes through the environment the less likely the boat will appear as a good path. Once the electrons start building up there is a point when they will discharge.

That is my understanding.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Unless the well head is blasted/melted or otherwise destroyed, just a pump failure suggests it was likely not a direct hit.

I think I'm going to have to disagree.

Trees 'explode' because the sap/water in the tree flashes to steam. I assume the same thing happened to my chimney; moisture in the brick flashed and blew things apart.

But a well is about as grounded as you can get - short of connecting to railroad track. The pipes are usually 4" in dia, or larger, and go into the ground at least 35' (here - that's code) and many go down 100' or more. And if lightning causes that kind of damage, why haven't they had to repair the steeple across the street? It isn't grounded anywhere near as good as a well, and survives just fine.

That said, well heads don't come through unscathed. There is a 'rubber' gasket that seals the cap to the pipe and they are burned/melted, as is the insulation on the wires going to the pump itself.

[Frankly]

I did some investigations for insurance companies about well pump replacements attributed to lightning damage. All were 4" wells with submersible pumps and were PVC cased. Some were hanging on galvanized pipe and some were hanging on PVC (the PVC drop pipes typically are backed up by a wire rope pendant). All had electrical power cables to power the pumps (no fiber optic well pump feeds).

North West Florida is pretty sandy and often dry. When there was significant damage I always assumed that lightning had found a good ground path typically via the electrical power conductors. I inspected still functioning motors (somebody looking for an easy payday) and some where the well company could not extract the pump and drop pipe because the pump/ well casement were welded into a solid mass (definite yes on lightning).

When I replaced my submersible pump a few years back I intentionally did not connect the ground wire and ran the neutral through the pressure switch. If the pressure switch is open then the pump is electrically isolated up to the arc over voltage of the switch. Not NEC compliant but Thor don't know nothing about no code business.


Frankly

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by Frankly

I did some investigations for insurance companies about well pump replacements attributed to lightning damage. All were 4" wells with submersible pumps and were PVC cased. Some were hanging on galvanized pipe and some were hanging on PVC (the PVC drop pipes typically are backed up by a wire rope pendant). All had electrical power cables to power the pumps (no fiber optic well pump feeds).

North West Florida is pretty sandy and often dry. When there was significant damage I always assumed that lightning had found a good ground path typically via the electrical power conductors. I inspected still functioning motors (somebody looking for an easy payday) and some where the well company could not extract the pump and drop pipe because the pump/ well casement were welded into a solid mass (definite yes on lightning).

When I replaced my submersible pump a few years back I intentionally did not connect the ground wire and ran the neutral through the pressure switch. If the pressure switch is open then the pump is electrically isolated up to the arc over voltage of the switch. Not NEC compliant but Thor don't know nothing about no code business.


Frankly

Interesting that they were PVC cased. The s-i-l and b-i-l both have 4" wells but both are steel cased 150' and 200' respectively. S-i-l's well is >75 years old (from what we understand) so it's anybody guess how much casing is left. B-i-l's is about 30 years old and should still be in decent shape casing wise.

Pumps and motors today are integral, sealed units. You can't disassemble them and check to see if they are OK. The fact that the motor still functioned/pump pumped but the installer replaced it doesn't mean that the pump guy was looking to rip off your company or the homeowner.

If lightning hits the well, you have to assume the motor/pump is damaged. It's a lot cheaper to just replace the unit than to come back and do it everything again. Would the insurance company pay for a second service call/pump replacement if the pump failed the next day/week/or month? No. In which case? You screwed the client.

You do realize (if my understanding of insurance protection is correct) that if you did not wire the unit according to code, you've voided your coverage.

[Frankly]

You don't understand life in the "lightning capital" (sometime Texas). The well stops pumping water and the well company comes out and replaces the pump/ motor. He then tells the owner to file a claim with his homeowners policy for lightning damage. Insurance Co. says not so fast, out engineer will be by to have a look.

Sometimes a quick winding/ insulation resistance check will shed some light, sometimes bring them back to the office for further checks. I brought in three from a beach condo (geothermal heat pump system) and all three worked fine on the bench. I never cut open a well pump motor but did quite a number of AC compressors. If the Insurance Companies didn't get a few second opinions every worn out Air Conditioning Compressor in Florida would be "lightning damage".

As to my own setup, the well is 4" PVC, 37 years old, on its second pump, and because I am self insured I can wire it as I please.

There is a note in the junction box and well motor control box outlining the wiring situation.

Frankly

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by Frankly

You don't understand life in the "lightning capital" (sometime Texas). The well stops pumping water and the well company comes out and replaces the pump/ motor. He then tells the owner to file a claim with his homeowners policy for lightning damage. Insurance Co. says not so fast, out engineer will be by to have a look.

Sometimes a quick insulation resistance check will shed some light, sometimes bring them back to the office for further checks. I brought in three from a beach condo (geothermal heat pump system) and all three worked fine on the bench. I never cut open a well pump motor but did quite a number of AC compressors. If the Insurance Companies didn't get a few second opinions every worn out Air Conditioning Compressor in Florida would be "lightning damage".

As to my own setup, the well is 4" PVC, 37 years old, on its second pump, and because I am self insured I can wire it as I please.

There is a note in the junction box and well motor control box outlining the wiring situation.

Frankly

I'm sure that there are dishonest pump installers. But IMO that is not a reason to refuse a claim, it's just an excuse so insurance companies don't have to pay the claim. That makes them just as bad as a crooked installer.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Ratel

Elcome lightning prevention system.



https://elcome.com/shop/sertec-cmce-...ection-system/



I came across this product which promises up to 99% less chance of getting hit by lightning.



Snake oil? Or has anyone experience with it.

If there was an effective means to prevent lightning, the insurance companies would be giving a premium discount to install it. Especially for boats in Florida.

[Frankly]

Not a reason to deny claims. An attempt to keep the system honest. If I found evidence of lightning damage my report indicated same.

Google what is going on down here now on the roof repair/ replacement scams.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Frankly

... As to my own setup, the well is 4" PVC, 37 years old, on its second pump, and because I am self insured [& in Texas* ] I can wire it as I please.
There is a note in the junction box and well motor control box outlining the wiring situation.
Frankly

* IIRC, until 2020, when they adopted the 2020 NEC, Texas had no electrical code.

[Frankly]

Sounds just like Texas. The songs of good old Willie Nelson tell you all you need to know about our second largest state


Frankly

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by Frankly

Google what is going on down here now on the roof repair/ replacement scams.

Don't live there, never intend to move there, don't much care what they do there.

But as far as scams go... every see a poor insurance company? I haven't.

Originally Posted by Frankly

well stops pumping water and the well company comes out and replaces the pump/ motor. He then tells the owner to file a claim with his homeowners policy for lightning damage.

Wasn't going to bring this up but...
I've been a homeowner (in 3 different states) for over 45 years. What insurance company pays for a claim without authorizing it first?

( Due to thread drift this is my last comment in this regard...)

[tkeithlu]

I hear Alaska plans to divide itself into two states and make Texas #3.