Mini scuba tanks instead of escape hatches?

[joelhemington]

Like RMairson, I too am a little put off by the escape hatches - seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Mantus makes a nice mini tank set up that allows a twenty five minute dive time - if you can't get out in that much time then you probably have other problems. This unit has the complete dive set up (BC etc.) and runs about $650 - do get the PADI certification so you know how to safely breath with these units. Cheap Chinese safety equipment doesn't sound very safe - I'd feel more confident just saving the money and crossing my fingers.

[capn_billl]

Note to self, when adrift in life boat, find 55gal drum.

My cat has an escape port well above the waterline. I'm still not sure how that will work inverted, I'm gonna have to stand on tiptoe to reach it, but no worries about it sinking the boat if it leaks.

[joelhemington]

Having never been on a flipped cat, it seems to me that while the hulls would have a pocket of air at the top, the salon would probably be submerged in which case a small scuba tank would be very helpful. The subject of panicking has been brought up several times here. Emergencies at sea (something I do have experience with) require that one maintain a cool head and formulates a doable plan quickly. Panicking at sea is a DEATH SENTENCE. Let's not forget that there are probably others also on the now upside down boat who are your responsibility as well (especially if it's your boat) hopefully they're not panicking which would make your job a lot tougher.

That said, I vote for small scuba set up for each crew member (make sure they know how to use them) With the air in the hulls there would be ample time to grab them and put them on unless everybody turns into Chicken Little and panic prevails, in which case it's probably game over.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by riki

So it's a matter of comfort.......ok.

I don't want to argue with experienced sailors as most of you are compared to me, BUT, when i was studing to get my licence (yes in EU you must study quite a lot to get the sailing licence) i remember that one of the most important things to do after deploying the liferaft and getting everybody on board was to cut the lines. Beside that, if you read the instructions on most of the liferafts it is described that all lines connected to the vessel MUST be cut. And there are many reasons why safety comes before comfort.

And if you think about it there is a very simple logic: excluding fire onboard and sudden sinking basically, the main reason for a mayday and liferaft deployment it's serious bad weather and technical problems related to the weather. The question is: do you want to keep tight to a half sunk vessel in big sea/waves/winds? Not me. I understand that in the weird case of a cat miracoulously capsizing in nice weather it's more comfortable to stay on the liferaft tied to the vessel and having access to the bar, but this is very unrealistic.

But i indeed agree that on the raft it's important to have the right gear, including detection devices.

Cutting the life raft painter applies to monohulls that are sinking and could drag a life raft under (not very far, as the tethers are designed to part with not very much force on them). If the monohull is not sinking you should not be stepping (swimming?) into a life raft.

Catamarans (and trimarans) are fundamentally different. As has been pointed out earlier, an overturned cat will not have reasonable accommodations inside partially flooded (and upside down) hulls (unless specially designed - very rare). So a life raft is actually more (relatively) comfortable and is generally safer than remaining inside a hull. But as long as the overturned boat is floating there is no reason to detach from it. Visibility and access to additional supplies are two reasons.

Even in very rough conditions, once you remove most of the windage the structure bobs up and down, with surfs sideways when hit by breaking waves. The two hulls act as breakwaters.

Really, this is standard practice for multihulls. Different than for monohulls.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Note to self, when adrift in life boat, find 55gal drum.



My cat has an escape port well above the waterline. I'm still not sure how that will work inverted, I'm gonna have to stand on tiptoe to reach it, but no worries about it sinking the boat if it leaks.

The higher the escape hatch is in a hull (I’ve also seen cats that have an escape hatch in the salon floor) the closer it will be to the inverted waterline. That’s why escape hatches are as low as possible, so that inverted they’ll be further above waterline and waves.

Do you really have that much headroom in your hulls? Remember, you’ll be standing on the ceiling.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

Having never been on a flipped cat, it seems to me that while the hulls would have a pocket of air at the top, the salon would probably be submerged in which case a small scuba tank would be very helpful. The subject of panicking has been brought up several times here. Emergencies at sea (something I do have experience with) require that one maintain a cool head and formulates a doable plan quickly. Panicking at sea is a DEATH SENTENCE. Let's not forget that there are probably others also on the now upside down boat who are your responsibility as well (especially if it's your boat) hopefully they're not panicking which would make your job a lot tougher.



That said, I vote for small scuba set up for each crew member (make sure they know how to use them) With the air in the hulls there would be ample time to grab them and put them on unless everybody turns into Chicken Little and panic prevails, in which case it's probably game over.

The possibility of flipping is why sleeping in the salon during passages is not recommended, although that’s routinely done and many boats feature tables that lower into beds that are used like that at sea.

If you’re awake in the salon you will likely be able to exit into the cockpit while the capsize is taking place. Capsizes are relatively slow, especially with heavier cruising cats. I’ve capsized twice in my earlier racing career, once sideways on a 40 foot racing cat and once a pitch pole of a 55 foot racing trimaran. Both times there was plenty of time to move to a better position while the boat lifted itself to the zero righting moment position (about 80-85 degrees with solid bridgedecks, a bit more for open bridgedeck cats) - once positive righting is gone the latter halves of the capsizes went quite quickly.

If you’re asleep in the salon you likely won’t awake before the first part of the capsize is done. In which case you wake up when upside down and quickly flooding. Hopefully you can get to the stairs to either hull before running out of breath, but unless you sleep with the air bottle attached to you I’m not sure how such a system could help. Disorientation would be brutal, especially at night in the dark.

At least in the hulls you would wake up as you slide up a wall to the ceiling, which is probably partially flooded. Sit up and you have plenty of air. Still disorientating, but little danger of drowning.

PFDs on catamarans should be manually triggered only. The last thing you want is for an inflated pfd to pin you to a flooded floor in the salon or cockpit. Boom strikes are virtually impossible on most cruising cats with their high booms that the unconscious overboard is not a likely scenario, unlike most monohulls with their lower booms. Because of that, monohulls should have automated inflation PFDs.

[mikereed100]

In order to escape from an overturned cat you must first turn it over. This is exceedingly difficult to do in a conservatively sailed cruising cat. Assuming you have managed to do so, I believe that the simplest way to exit would be through one of the deck hatches, which are now directly below your feet. During the day they will be a source of light, which would make them easier to locate. I believe this is how the crew on Anna finally exited the hull after trying unsuccessfully to break the escape 'window'. The hull will be full of trapped air so you will have plenty of time to orient yourself and plan your exit, even with all the floating debris in the hull.

At night this would be quite a bit more problematic, but I don't believe an escape hatch or bail out scuba will make it any easier. An escape hatch might be easier to find than a deck hatch, but it may not, depending on it's location.

I have long suspected that escape hatches on cats are more a regulatory solution than a practical one. I am not aware of any instance where crew have drowned or suffocated in the upturned hull of a cat.

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by joelhemington

..... Mantus makes a nice mini tank set up that allows a twenty five minute dive time -

This Mantus set up makes sense (link below). Ample amount of air. Secure back pack so both hands are free. Far better system than Spare Air for safely exiting an overturned vessel, especially in the dark. I would recommend a couple of modifications. #1 attach an underwater light and a mask to the rig. #2 Secure the octopus 2nd stage (secondary air source) to the straps with the mouth piece at your shoulder. A hose dangling along behind you or below you (if you're upside down) is almost guaranteed to get hung up on something. #3 For the same reason shorten the high pressure hose attached to the air gauge. You only need the gauge to insure the tank is full when you check it periodically. During the escape you're not going to be checking the air like you would on a regular dive.

Thanks joelhemington for making note of this rig in your post.

https://www.mantusmarine.com/product...YaAmhzEALw_wcB

[stevenm2016]

Leopard stopped installing escape hatches in the hull around mid 2017. My L45 came without the classic hatch on the side. The hinged stairs that would have allowed access to the hatch is still there. The hinge is great for cleaning purposes. However, should she ever flip, the stairs would flip as well. This would "block" the companionway and would require lifting the stairs in order to exit as there is no locking mechanism to keep the stairs from swinging upward. Yes there are the hatches above every bed in every cabin. However, if the she flips and you are in your cabin, the mattress is now on top of you pinning you against the hatch. This is until everything fills up with water and its now floating. Yes, there are a few escape routes defined. Using them in a real life scenario would be less than ideal.

[Bon Temps]

I don’t know what kind of cat you have but as a long time cat owner my understanding is that there is an extremely small chance of a modern cat capsizing. I believe the French had some idea that it could happen and put it in their regulations but I know it is pretty much ignored by surveyors. Ask your manufacturer about it. My cat went through a 200 mile/hour wind while on supports and did not flip over.

[CTSeadog]

Thetis-- lots of good advice here about risks and safety concerns. If I might add one anecdotal piece of information. My son served as a US Navy helicopter pilot. As part of his standard equipment he carried a tiny tank of compressed air (supposedly good for 2 minutes). His training included trips to the "dunk tank". There, in a mock up of a helicopter cockpit, they were submersed and inverted. and had to use their micro tanks to help them breath while exiting and surfacing. One of the biggest challenges was that you only got 2 minutes out of the tank if you remained completely calm. It took a lot of training, under realistic disaster simulations, for pilots to learn to stay calm. How could one go through such training for sailing their catamaran? When a person is excited, anxious, exerting physical energy, or under stress , they typically need a lot more air. Seems to me being below when the boat capsizes could be a very stressful situation. Even if the tank worked perfectly and you remembered all the safety rules about breathing compressed air underwater...you might burn through that air too fast...So aa readily accessible escape hatch (in each hull) might be a really good idea. Best of luck; stay safe and enjoy your time on the water!

[stevenm2016]

Been in some fairly rough weather and rough seas. Having a wave crest over the helm station on a cat is pretty high. Never once have I been concerned about flipping. My comments are only that an additional escape hatch that is prone to leaking would not be worth having. There were previous comments about using the hatches above the the beds in the cabins, however, they are worthless if flipped due to everything laying on top of them. Cant imagine what forces would be required to flip the cat. Whatever they are, I shouldn't be out sailing in them.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Thetis

Our newly bought (second hand) Schionning does not have any escape hatches and we want to avoid building them in. We are considering the purchase of small scuba tanks, 0.5 or 1 l, to be used in an emergency situation (boat upside down and you need to escape out of one of the hulls). They could also be used for a quick inspection dive. Is there anybody out there who can share his/her experience with one of these tanks? Plus: There are some comparatively cheap Chinese ones on the market, which come with a manual pump. We cannot imagine that this will work. Again: Can you share your experience?

It is an interesting idea for sure. As a multihull sailor (my last 2) I have always been interested in the escape hatches. By chance I recently saw a movie (actual event) about a catamaran that capsized. As I recall they cut a whole in the hull to get out. They spent a great deal of time on the over turned hull but used the inside to get out of weather, and to protect them from the wind and sun. They spent quite a long time onboard amounting to weeks and weeks Before being rescued which happened when the boat drifted onto an island.

So the question I have is what will you do with small tanks when they run out of air. How will you get back in to get out of the weather or to bring things out? Just something to think about.

[Perfect Ride]

Originally Posted by Thetis

Is there anybody out there who can share his/her experience with one of these tanks?

Perhaps a bit off the core question: the thought of choosing to go in the water, in the dark, with the lines and rigging and potentially other broken sharp edges etc., in rough seas, perhaps with waves causing the hulls to lift and fall, under an inverted vessel expecting that this will not knock a tank from my mouth, or have the rocking hull knock me out, seems like a considerable risk. A risk worth factoring into your final decision.


Also many reports I have read, show that for extended time at sea awaiting rescue, on an inverted vessel with hatches, the survivors have chosen to spend some times inside the hulls and other times remain on the inverted bridge deck. Having a hatch allows that option. Another consideration for your final choice.

[jim King]

Don't even think about it unless you have PADI training and have practiced with the mini tank at least ten times. More important to getting out of flipped cat is having a mask and dive lite nearby as you won't find your way out in the dark upside down world without them.