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sundog · 07-03-2008, 06:57

Wow you guys are a hypersensitive bunch! Hell, you all make me out to be bashing multis, I'd love to own a cat, I even learned to sail on one! Let me add some context.... I'll describe the cat I'd be worried in when all hell broke loose (which is based on what I'll be able to afford yet be willing to be seen in) so the price will put me in a mid 90s 38-40' production rig. And no it will not be a prout, catalac, ect. if I have a cat then its gonna haul and point which means it will be light. The monos that are at the top of my list are the 44'CSY and 44/46 Kelly Peterson, not exactly light duty rigs which I would put alot of trust in in survival conditions. My only heavy weather experience stems from 14 hours of 30-40kts (from the southeast thankfully) in the stream on my 38' old school performance mono. Those were big damn waves and really close together and I'll honestly say I believe the above mentioned cat could have taken it I think it would have been scary as hell and would have required an attentive skipper to keep moving safely, we were cruising along under a triple reefed main and a piece of headsail with the autopilot driving and making a good steady 8-9 kts. Uncomfortable as hell because we were walking on the walls and crap was flying everywhere but feeling very safe which seemed like a fair tradeoff. So let me ask again, if you spent around 150k would you rather have your family in a 1978 44'CSY or a 1995 say FP Athena in a severe storm taking the last resort lying a hull option? I'm going to lean towards the CSY...

However nobody has an excuse to get caught in that crap with the avalibility of good weather forecasts and of course when I get to the anchorage I'd rather be on the Athena!

And I always read the entire thread before posting, unlike alot of people who are just looking for a good pissing contest.

Tropic Cat · 07-03-2008, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by sundog

So let me ask again, if you spent around 150k would you rather have your family in a 1978 44'CSY or a 1995 say FP Athena in a severe storm taking the last resort lying a hull option? I'm going to lean towards the CSY... .

I love this question which you preface by saying that you want a cat that can 'haul', and then complain when you feel that the light cat isn't safe. To top it off you then compare it to some of the heaviest and most stable of the monos. I also must have missed where you posted the data that shows that monohulls are safer than catamarans in rough stuff. And yes, I did read your entire post, and no I don't live for 'a pissing contest'. I take afront when bad information is posted here.

Performance boats regardless of number of hulls aren't designed to survive hurricanes at sea. I think I'm safe in saying that you don't necessarily buy a Cat so you can 'haul' and be safe (I'm talking hurricanes here) unless you have some more cash in the cruising kitty.

On the other hand Cruising Catamarans are not to confused with Hobie 16s. If you have to go fast you might consider buying a seat on a 747. As I pointed out earlier Cats have now demonstrated that they can be safer than monohulls at sea. Not wives tales or the tried and true 'everyone knows..." . All you have to do is click the link I offered in my last post and see what really happens at sea when the stuff hits the proverbial fan. In exchange, you do get a different boat motion.

Lastly, In my humble opinion, people buy a Cat for safety and comfort. People forget that the typical boat spends 99.99% of it's life at the dock or at anchor.

Sorry for the diatribe, this is a hot button with me.

Southern Star · 07-03-2008, 08:11

Eleven, it was the suggestion that mono owners must be masochists that got me to respond. With that, I disagree. I still believe that there is much more 'romance' to a vintage (or vintage style) mono as described, than a multi. And I understand that others will disagree (or consider it irrelevant).

And Sundog, we aren't a hypersenstive bunch at all. I (and others) felt that your earlier post was inaccurate and perpetuated a myth about the heavy weather capability of multihulls. Full stop. Your comparison of two completely dissimilar vessels was also meaningless, as Rick has pointed out. I'd feel just as safe (actually safer) in my under $150,000.00 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40 as I would in the 44' CSY. Neither is a performance boat, although in addition to Llloyd's offshore certification, tempered glass windows, a more stable platform for moving about on deck (and cooking and navigating etc.), twin diesels (should one pack it in when needed), my cat also will also have the advantage of being be a bit faster and much more roomy once weather returns to normal.

Brad

sundog · 07-03-2008, 08:50

Points taken, but when I compare boats that I may actually live on the comparison starts with price.... full stop. Of course a 60' sunreef would kick the crap out most monos in speed and saftey and if I could afford it I'd own one but I can't! There are certain monos and certain multi's available for a given amount. Therefore my OPINIONS -not information/facts are based on the available vessels. In my opinion there is just no point in owning a fat slow multi (read motorsailor) granted the CSY is no speed demon but I've read several accounts of 180mile days and the KP can easily exceed 200, that's good pace! If I can get a big center cockpit, aft cabin world cruiser that does 200mi days for 150k then I'll get it. That same 150k will get me the FP, capable of breaking 15kts, decent looking, roomy, light, and delivered from France on her own bottom all around the world. I've never heard of an Athena (or any FP for that matter breaking up, flipping, ect. Unlike some other french cats.... So is the comparison that far off?? Both boats have sterling records, multiple circs, similar usable space, are a good representation of the breed and cost the same. Why is this a bad comparison of a mono and multi? Each of these boats targeted the charter trade and have endured much abuse without incident, each has pros and cons, I can't decide!! They're polar opposites yet quite similar. Are ya getting where I come from?? I'm trying to decide based on what I can afford coupled with the qualities I require.

Southern Star · 07-03-2008, 09:52

Whether the KP will 'easily exceed 200' mile days is open to debate, but I think I get your argument. If a cat is no faster than the KP (albeit still faster than the CSY), then it is a 'motorsailor' and there is no sense in owning it. Only if the performance of the cat is vastly superior to a mono is it 'worth' owning.

But since increased space, comfort, privacy, gunkholing ability due to shoal draft, stability under sail and anchor and more manueverability under power are all 'worthless' to you, then why not buy a racing monohull? One that can reach 15 plus knots when surfing? Of course it will have no room, comfort, privacy, a very small engine, no shower, a minimal tankage, galley, etc., etc., but those are 'worthless' to you. It will have performance roughly comparable to the FP.

With respect, there are many cats that are available under $150,000.00 used in the present market that will still equal or outperform the monos you listed. Think of not just the FP, but of some used Privilege's, Solaris Sunstar 36's (and frankly, my Sunstream 40 would handily outperform the CSY), certain Prouts, and yes, I imagine even some early Mantas could be had in that price range. To say nothing, of course, of some well-built custom cats.

You might want to read some recent threads here by a former owner of a mono in the size range that you are speaking of, who just purchased a 34 foot Catalac for his views concerning the relative performance of the boats, as well as comparisons of their accomodation/utility etc.

In any event, if what you are looking for is the capability to sail at 15 knots, then both of the monos you have listed (and virtually any other mono suitable for cruising at anywhere near your price range) will also be worthless.

Brad

If you want a boat that will do 15 knots, then why not purchase a racing mono that can attain such speeds while surfing? Surely that would be a fair comparison.

sundog · 07-03-2008, 10:16

A cat that doesn't sail well doesn't do what it's intented to do. Why bother with the rig at all??? A well designed SAILING cat should perform well otherwise in my OPINION it's crap. The monos I mentioned perform well for what they are and sail as they should. So does the multi I mentioned. A houseboat has a shallow draft and lots of room but I want a sailboat and if it's a multi I expect it to be fast, if its a mono not so much but it damn well better be able claw off a lee shore in gale conditions under sail alone. Let's see a catalac do that. I just want a safe, comfortable world cruiser that's not ugly as hell. Be it a fast multi or a slow mono. The fact will remain until I get more multi experience I will feel safer in survival conditions in the heavy mono. But I gather I'm not entitled to my own opinion...

Blue Skye · 07-03-2008, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by sundog

I've been pondering for a while...we all know the pors and cons of each but for me it comes down to this.
multi- I love the space, lack of heeling, draft, and the speed BUT there is really something to be said for a heavy, seaworthy mono when the going really gets rough. To be able to drop the sails, shut the hatches, go below and ride it out when you just can't take anymore and tore your storm sails and lost your drouge/sea anchor, lost power and you're tired and sick gives a huge sense of security. This simply can't be safely done in a cat, it must be actively sailed/driven/otherwise controlled to some degree.
But I still can't decide! I'd better figure it out soon though as I want to get out there in a couple years.

I could be wrong, but I think to most of the cat owners this does not sound like an opinion, more like a conclusion/fact that comes from your experience sailing a cat in rough conditions. Because they have experience they think your comment is without merit. I do not own a sailboat, just wanted to offer my unbiased unexperienced opinion.

sundog · 07-03-2008, 10:43

Oh pardon me.... please insert "in my opinion"

Blue Skye · 07-03-2008, 10:48

I think 30 lashes is in order for your omission

. I think lively debate and the excellent info is why we are all here.

sundog · 07-03-2008, 11:06

I like this man, someone buy him a beer! No wait, he only has a powerboat he's totally unqualified to post here. He needs to own a cat... er.. mono... hell I don't know.

At least his panties don't seem to wad as easily other's he must be okay.

Blue Skye · 07-03-2008, 11:21

Thank you for your insightful remarks. I wish I had a cat or mono, just isn't in the cards for me yet. So I vicariously live through the experienced sailors that eloquently post to this forum

.

Southern Star · 07-03-2008, 11:53

Sundog, you are entitled to your own opinions. What rankles some here is your original inaccurate statement that you cannot lie ahull safely in a cat (not expressed as an opinion, but rather as a fact). As I indicated earlier, this operates so as to perpetuate a myth/untruth that could not stand uncorrected. This was done fairly, in my opinion, and with real world examples.

You then modified your statement to say that you would feel safer in two particular monos versus one specific multi; and most recently, that until you have more experience in multis you will feel safer in a mono. That subjective feeling is one that you are clearly entitled to; it is also one that would not have attracted the criticism that was directed at your earlier inaccurate statement of fact.

I do wonder on what basis you are prepared to conclude that the Privilege 37 and 39, the Solaris Sunstar 36 and Sunstream 40 and the Manta 40 do not sail well? That they would be slower than the two monos you listed and that they would be unable to claw off a lee shore? I listed those boats as examples of other cruising cats that will likely be available in your price range. I know of no one (apart from yourself) who would list any of those as houseboats that shouldn't have a sail rig. You are entitled to your opinions, of course, but you may be wiser in future to not advertise the illogicaility of the same by then extolling the virtues of two monohulls that would have even less performance under sail.

I know, I know, you then went on to say that the monos you listed 'sail well for what they are and perform as they should' - but so do the cats I listed. Like the cruising monos you so obivously prefer, they put emphasis on accomodation and solid construction at a reasonable price. They are all seaworthy and would likely beat either of the monos you promote on a closed course - and yes, even to windward. Will they point as high as the Petersen 44/46? Perhaps not. But velocity made good is the real issue on any point of sail.

In any case, in your original post you said that despite the advantages of cats in numerous areas (that you claimed to love), the issue really came down to the ability of a mono to lie ahull, and the inablility of a cat to do so safely. When that difference was dispelled for you, instead of thanking us for making your decision easier, you started to attack all cats that aren't built largely for speed. I'm not sure what that is all about, but it is clear that you were being disingenuous in your original post.

Brad

Tropic Cat · 07-03-2008, 12:30

Oh... you are posting opinions... sheesh... and I wasted 10 minutes responding.

While you are busy posting opinions, we'd like to hear you explain how a 747 handles as compared to an Airbus? It sounds to me that you're as qualified to offer this opinion, as you have the other.

imagine2frolic · 07-03-2008, 12:31

I started sailing on monos just like most of us here. When I bought my cat I had taken a couple of afternoon rides on a 55 foot cat on S.F. Bay. I liked the high teen sailing. I never really thought I could afford a cat though.

Life changed, and I bought Imagine in the Caribbean, and she was less than 4 years old. We sailed from St. Maarten to Florida, and back to the Bahamas the following season. We put about 5000 miles on Imagine, and then we flew home to S.F. for a visit.

I went down, and straightened up poor neglected Frolic. Got her running, and her gear sorted out. We went for a typical fall afternoon sail out of Emeryville. Rail nearly down, and full sail. She was doing a good 6 knots close hauled. I looked around the skyline of the Bay Area. The rail low, and thought to myself. Now this is really sailing. The way a sailboat should behave.

I slapped myself in the forehead, and said out loud "what the hell am I thinking". That's what I was use to, so it was what is considered normal. It was a great feeling, but the reality is this for me. My distant relatives for a thousand years sailed multihulls, and discovered the whole Pacific.

What really has become the normal now is sailing flat, sailing as close to the wind as most monos at half the wind speed. She won't push her shoulders through the waves in 25knots like a mono, so I fall off, and pick up speed. Cats have their faults just like anything in life. Cats have proven to survive weather. The Queens race is a perfect example. Most any boat will survive with appropriate seamanship.

As said earlier most boats are 99% at the dock, or anchor. You just can't beat sitting in an anchorage flat while other boats are rolling. When we left Florida for the Bahamas 2 years ago. We had 30+ knots on the quarter. A double reefed main with half of the headsail. Doing steady midteens and a cup of coffee sitting on top of the house. Every time I reached for the cup......IT WAS STILL THERE.

Every boat has it's plus, and it's minus. I will take my cat over a mono until the time comes for me to get into some really high latitude sailing. Then I will want a mono. If I can't afford the mono while hanging onto my cat. Then the cat & I will be off to some new lessons in life................