New Boat vs Used Boat?

[George_SD]

I would go for a well surveyed boat that has the shakedown already done. Ideally, not old, but with savings to take care of anything that needs attention.

[JPA Cate]

The first two years, depreciation is huge. I'd rather a previous owner paid for it. But I think the real problem is that new boats have a reputation for generating huge fixit lists before they're fit to go offshore. I hope you can find one used as you want to use yours, it would be pretty much ready to go, hopefully, without all the commissioning costs.

Ann

[Dooglas]

My advice is to avoid a brand new boat and consider one that is 2 to 3 years old and well cared for. That way, all needed initial repairs and adjustments have been done - and hopefully some of the most desired upgrades have also been done. Older boats may seem like they save you money, but those are the ones which require substantial investments of time and money before a major passage. Get a fairly new boat and enjoy!

[Sandy Frank]

Originally Posted by b_ohare

What Russ and Keith claim in this video is spot-on. I'm going through this right now with Lagoon (and for the past 2+ months). The negativity I have for the policies and behaviors of Lagoon's representatives grows with each day I'm given the run-around or have to wait to get service. I am APPALLED how Lagoon and its dealers act when it comes to warranty. From what I understand from some of the dealers, quite a bit of this is because Lagoon (and I assume the rest of the major manufacturers) does everything they can to avoid paying for troubleshooting or claims and, when they do, their reimbursement rate is so minimal that it doesn't really make sense for a dealer to spend their limited service people (who are so backed-up with more profitable paying customers) fixing warranty problems for a reduced rate. (I'm also told it takes forever for dealers to get reimbursement from Lagoon). I had one Lagoon dealer outright discourage me from coming to them because they didn't want to get involved in warranty work. Additionally, Lagoon's policy is that you can't find your own local mechanic to make the fixes (as the dealers might not be able to schedule you for months) and then get properly reimbursed. So the onus is on you to get the boat to the closest dealer (which might be very far away or in a very expensive area). Finally, all the costs for the time you're waiting at a marina or getting the work done is on you - Lagoon will not reimburse for dock fees even if it's a perfectly valid warranty issue.

I was advised by one Lagoon dealer: "just bite the bullet, get local people to fix the problems, and then submit your claims to Lagoon; if you get 20% back, consider yourself lucky." Wow - just wow.

Related, I spent a few months at a Cape Town marina where new Leopards were being commissioned. From what I understand, the commissioning process takes so long and each boat often has major work done on those docks because they are so poorly manufactured at the factory. I've been told both by workers on those boats and delivery skippers that it's a ****-show. I was also told a story about one new Leopard with major structural problems identified by the delivery skipper. It took many thousands and months of screwing around (engineering reports, lawyers, etc.) to finally get Leopard to build a new boat for the owner. It was only after the owner threatened to change the name of the boat (to reflect the structural problem) and advertise the problems in newspapers that Leopard finally relented. Appalling...

When you buy a boat with a warranty for such a significant amount of money, it is reasonable to expect the manufacturer will act with integrity. From my experience, Lagoon does not. I do not accept "well, that's the way it works in the industry." It is beyond a slap-in-the-face to new owners and shameful behavior. I would bet the only way to change this behavior is to stop buying new boats/boats with warranties. They haven't any reason to change if there aren't negative consequences for their behavior.

As an aside, and as the manufacturer warranties are basically useless only causing new owners grief, I see a great opportunity for insurance companies to enter the business of providing extended warranties that are actually meaningful and useful.

The general feeling from Beneteau Group is scuzzy.

[rbyham]

Buy used get a non Local surveyor and check maintenance log... Àll should support a purchase. I always insist on log to verify able previous owner. Then have funds available to make everything right.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by b_ohare

What Russ and Keith claim in this video is spot-on. I'm going through this right now with Lagoon (and for the past 2+ months). The negativity I have for the policies and behaviors of Lagoon's representatives grows with each day I'm given the run-around or have to wait to get service. I am APPALLED how Lagoon and its dealers act when it comes to warranty. From what I understand from some of the dealers, quite a bit of this is because Lagoon (and I assume the rest of the major manufacturers) does everything they can to avoid paying for troubleshooting or claims and, when they do, their reimbursement rate is so minimal that it doesn't really make sense for a dealer to spend their limited service people (who are so backed-up with more profitable paying customers) fixing warranty problems for a reduced rate. (I'm also told it takes forever for dealers to get reimbursement from Lagoon). I had one Lagoon dealer outright discourage me from coming to them because they didn't want to get involved in warranty work. Additionally, Lagoon's policy is that you can't find your own local mechanic to make the fixes (as the dealers might not be able to schedule you for months) and then get properly reimbursed. So the onus is on you to get the boat to the closest dealer (which might be very far away or in a very expensive area). Finally, all the costs for the time you're waiting at a marina or getting the work done is on you - Lagoon will not reimburse for dock fees even if it's a perfectly valid warranty issue.

I was advised by one Lagoon dealer: "just bite the bullet, get local people to fix the problems, and then submit your claims to Lagoon; if you get 20% back, consider yourself lucky." Wow - just wow.

I think the above points are very relevant, especially when you are long distance remote cruising, moving countries, moving oceans, etc

To be honest it even applies at the level of superyachts too, so this is not just a small boat problem. Warranty work and service really eats into a company's profits and they don't like doing it.

And if they do finally agree, even more than the money factor it's all the other inconveniences getting to that point:

- the stress of 'arguing' your case

- the 'lost time' in terms of cruising
(many cruisers still have some type of schedule, be that seasons, family visits, work committments, etc)

- the 'lost revenue' if the boat charters

- the 'will they even repair/replace' how I want or think or how is necessary?
(often they repair/replace like with like, and the problem just occurs again in the future, and probably yet again once the warranty has expired)

- the 'lost weather window' for ocean crosssings
(possibly even leaving you stuck somewhere unsuitable in the wrong season)

- the 'lost money' for all the other direct and indirect costs associated with the repairs that are not covered by the warranty
(often these can be much greater than the warranty repairs themselves)



Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing but using the example of the video in the first post in that case the owner would probably have been better off (in terms of stress, time, and even money) just pulling the problematic engine and replacing it with a brand new one and figuring out who is at 'fault' later (or not, and just selling the old engine and moving on).

Initially that seems crazy of course, but after the fact it seems totally sensible.

At least like this they wouldn't have had their cruising plans massively disrupted. And sadly you can see that they were quite mentally impacted by all of this. Cruising is meant to be enjoyable, and they didn't look like they were having fun anymore

So overall whether chosing a second hand boat or a new boat, it seems prudent to be prepared to pay the cost of repairs yourself. If in the end if you get some money back somehow from somewhere then great, if not, well you budgeted for it not only financially but also mentally.

Additionally in the type of circumstance that the OP proposes, in a larger more self sufficient boat for long distance remote cruising, I think all of this again moves towards thoughts about the reliability of equipment, spare parts to be carried, and/or redundancy of critical systems.

Perhaps even more so for a less experienced cruiser, with less technical ability to make repairs themselves in a remote location.

There was some comment in the OP's other thread regarding a 60ft cat (Sailing Zatara / Privilege 585 type as a working example) being too 'huge, massive, technically complex, etc'.

And yet unless talking about a very simple minimalist smaller boat, most small to medium sized boats have similar systems to the larger ones these days, just 'less' of them (eg: still a refrigeration system, but only 1 fridge instead of 2).

So I take the approach that the space, payload, technical characteristics, and overall ability of this larger vessel could instead be viewed as an advantage for the OP's proposed use.

- more than 1 head, use the 2nd when the first is broken
- more than 1 fridge, use the 2nd when the first is broken
- more than 1 watermaker, use the 2nd when the first is broken
- more than 1 engine, use the 2nd when the first is broken
- more than 1 genset, use the 2nd when the first is broken
(or have an alternative solar/battery/alternator setup, etc)

I could go on, but I think the point is established. Because things will break, regardless of a new boat, a second hand boat, or any warranty.

It's often mentioned about boats sitting in ports waiting for parts and repairs so it's good to be able to avoid that as much as possible, being in a position to time repairs more conveniently in relation to location, or simply the situation onboard.

Some cruisers will do that by being more minimalist and/or doing without.

Other cruisers want/need the comforts or technical capabilities and will choose to have redundancy.

My 2 cents. Maybe some more food for thought

[gulfcoastsailor]

I always thought a new needed a survey as much as used🤪?

[b_ohare]

Originally Posted by jclark500

We are now 2 years out of the original 2 year warranty on our 2017 Xquisite X5. This was our first boat and I must say feeling very lucky to have stumbled on to this company in 2016 at the Annapolis boat show (my wife actually found them). Tamas is basically the exclusive dealer for the Phoenix catamaran builder in South Africa. Only one number to call for issues anywhere in the world and they were always very responsive in assisting to get support from OEM's where applicable or reimburse me if it was something else.

There was several weeks of warranty done in Miami after sailing from BVI's (cargo ship from Capetown to BVI) to Miami. Stayed pretty close to east coast USA and Bahamas for the first full year and a half before feeling comfortable to go further afield. Think I would do the same with any new boat.

There have been some design issues that came up last year when we were fully out of warranty that the factory felt were fit for purpose and denied. Tamas with Xquisite stepped up and reimbursed the majority of my expense after getting it all sorted. He is building a brand. Not just there to sell a boat and cash your check.

I watched the entire video that was attached as we had some inital issues with the same Yanmar engines. Turned out to be loose electrical connection on the batteries...sigh.

Had I known about this before I made my purchase, I would have seriously considered Xquisite. Never heard of them. This is the way a company with integrity operates.

[Kd9truck]

With a million bucks I’d buy a 500k vessel in the 50 ft range and upgrade to a premium level of self sufficiency. New gear with new spares,Throughout. With a limit of about 250k the rest I would bank for the unexpected…..because there will be a great many unexpecteds. Cheers

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by b_ohare

Had I known about this before I made my purchase, I would have seriously considered Xquisite. Never heard of them. This is the way a company with integrity operates.

Perhaps yes, but you will note the following was mentioned:

Originally Posted by jclark500

There was several weeks of warranty done in Miami after sailing from BVI's (cargo ship from Capetown to BVI) to Miami. Stayed pretty close to east coast USA and Bahamas for the first full year and a half before feeling comfortable to go further afield. Think I would do the same with any new boat.

And whilst that's great, and I agree it's prudent not to jump off to the Pacific immediately with a new or second hand boat, it still doesn't account for the following type of situation once out in the wild blue yonder...

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

Warranties will do you a fat lot of good when you're anchored off a remote Tongan island (there are 167 in the Tongan group alone) and you want to invoke your warranty to have something fixed/replaced. We waited for two weeks once just for a head gasket to be shipped from Volvo.

In that case 2 weeks is actually quite good to get the part.

Next of course is can you pull the head and replace a head gasket yourself?

If not where is the closest technician who can do it for you?

Or do you have all the parts and tools and somehow get some other cruisers to help you do the project? Etc...

It could easily be a longer wait, or you may need to move the boat to where you can get the part or do the repair.

At least with redundancy there are more options, depending on the issue:

- let's fix that tomorrow after we go diving, surfing, drinking, today
- let's wait until we arrive at the next island to better look at that problem
- let's not worry and instead put that on the boatyard list for New Zealand

[smj]

Originally Posted by rbyham

Buy used get a non Local surveyor and check maintenance log... Àll should support a purchase. I always insist on log to verify able previous owner. Then have funds available to make everything right.

Having a log available is maybe a good thing, but to discount a seller that doesn’t keep a log is cutting yourself short. Not all owners need a log to keep up with naintansnce

[dc9loser]

Sounds like what I thought, the warrantees are worse than worthless.

You waste time and money chasing a warranty vs just fixing the stuff.

Buy used, but carefully, and make sure ya have lots of money to refit and fix left over?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

Sounds like what I thought, the warrantees are worse than worthless.

You waste time and money chasing a warranty vs just fixing the stuff.

Buy used, but carefully, and make sure ya have lots of money to refit and fix left over?

In 3 simple lines, that's probably it.

I would see a warranty more important for a major issue in a new boat.

eg: construction/structural problem or something of that nature.

And even then, as we have seen from the Lagoon bulkhead issue, it's not as cut and dry as one might hope it to be.

[mako]

OP, putting aside all that good advice above, think about how long you’re planning to own the boat.

Is this a five circumnavigation then move in to that next phase of life back on land? Buy used.

Is this your last hoorah and you’ll keep this boat 20+ years until you’re old and decrepit? Buy new.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by dc9loser

Sounds like what I thought, the warrantees are worse than worthless.

You waste time and money chasing a warranty vs just fixing the stuff.

Buy used, but carefully, and make sure ya have lots of money to refit and fix left over?

I don't think they are worse than worthless.

For one thing, they force the builders and dealers to hand over better-quality boats. That is, to fix the things themselves when it's more cost-efficient rather than later when it's expensive, logistically challenging and you get angry customers badmouthing their brand on the internets.

And, again, not all dealers and boat manufacturers are the same. I've heard great things said about Outremer. My personal experience with the Hanse Group (now owners of the Privilege brand mentioned) has been great as well, but I didn't buy a Privilege, so who knows.