New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Ask him for a signed guarantee that he will pay the VAT out of his own pocket if his advice turns out to be wrong. Not saying it is wrong but in my experience most brokers are as honest as shady backyard car dealers

That's a bit like the way it worked when we bought our new boat and didn't pay VAT to the dealer.

The government (in the dealer's country) required the dealer to submit necessary proof that the dealer was allowed to sell + invoice the boat without VAT. Without evidence, VAT bill => dealer.

The interpretations differ from state to state. This was our case.

[Piscis]

It took BALI about 2 years after the XCS 11 showed up, to place a new "entry level" catamaran on the market. They just anounced the new BALI "CATSMART"...

Lets see how Lagoon and FP will react on that. At least BALI answered my starting post, asking about a little bit smaller and lower priced entry level catamarans!

BTW, R&C is going the oposite way, by stopping production of the Leopard 40.

Well done, BALI, and Thanks!

John

[rabbi]

Quote from their brochure :

"Structural strength: solid foredeck and bulkheads laminated to hulls and deck"

I'm no fan of solid foredeck but i like that they advertise the laminated bulkheads. I hope this will add pressure on the "market leaders" to do the same

[Phyrcooler]

Interesting conversation. Like everything, the price of entry keeps going up. I, like many here, are impressed with some aspects of the Seawind line… primarily build quality and affordability. Unfortunately, there are design aspects of the Seawind that make it a no starter for us. Primary is what we consider the horrible helm locations.

Recently saw the new FP Isla 40. Very impressed with the layout. Design-wise, has many features we like in a cruising Cat. Note: I can’t speak to build quality nor have I seen any performance tests. We like: Elevated, protectable helm. (Note I did NOT say flybridge helm). Flat roof - for SOLAR, not a “Lounge”. Low boom height. Close to a 40’ waterline length / 22’ beam (<25’ ) Great owners hull. “Guest hull” has single large head - not two small wet heads like many small charter cats. Overall, many good features other current production cats don’t have.

As has already been stated, most of the production cats have gotten larger. And unfortunately, nearly all have huge cabin top “lounge” areas and high booms. Completely undesirable to us. Not many options out there that tickle our fancy in the 40’ range.

[Ifitsworthdoing]

Somewhat delayed response but here it is: We are in the exact same position of being unable to afford the common entry level but are looking for a new build (because of massive idiosyncracies) for a married couple of retirement age. Our choice is the Broadblue 346 built in Poland/UK with a CE A (Ocean) rating. Prices start from around £200k incl. VAT, comparable to the Aventura range but maybe a slightly superior internal fit-out level. The limited beam (16 feet) also means she fits through French canal locks and into many monohull marina berths. Can't recommend the 'bijou cruiser cat' concept highly enough ...

[mglonnro]

I wonder what the Hanse group is planning.

Now that they are exiting themselves from Privilege I'm sure they are not content with being totally outside the sailing cat market.

I've always thought their brand and philosophy would be well suited for something slightly quicker and more affordable in the cat sphere

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Phyrcooler

Interesting conversation. Like everything, the price of entry keeps going up. I, like many here, are impressed with some aspects of the Seawind line… primarily build quality and affordability. Unfortunately, there are design aspects of the Seawind that make it a no starter for us. Primary is what we consider the horrible helm locations. :

Of course you know there's a huge demand for these boats, and long delivery time because of it, so your helm opinion is not universally shared. As well, there are also many of us on our second Seawind (upsized) that really prefer the dual, not-elevated helm.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Of course you know there's a huge demand for these boats, and long delivery time because of it, so your helm opinion is not universally shared. As well, there are also many of us on our second Seawind (upsized) that really prefer the dual, not-elevated helm.

Yes there is a demand for these boats. They appear to be a well made cruisers boat, and are a spritely performer at a less than performance cat price. That’s the draw. People aren’t buying them because they are looking specifically for a boat with a helm on the rear bulkhead. You could put a tiller on them and they’d probably still have a robust market. They also - like many boats have made design compromises or decisions not everyone likes. The helm position is a well known feature that many, including myself, are not wild about. While the 1370 has narrower salon/cabin window mullions than the 1190 and 1260 (which are worse)… I do not like looking through, or around the sides of the cabin. It’s like driving a van from the back seat. Even their sailing YouTube brand ambassadors - Sailing Ruby Rose, have gone out of their way to try to over-explain and justify the helms - even admitting they were controversial. Could you imagine a powerboat putting a helm station on the back bulkhead of the cabin, instead of inside, or in a pilot house, and say… hey.. this is better… just look through the cabin or around it?!

Bottom line is every boat is a combination of features impacted by design choices and compromises. Every company also makes decisions that they feel will set them apart. Not everyone is going to like the same design choices, or there’d only be one company making boats. I can’t stand the helms of the Nautitech or the Excess either. They put them there as a design choice to try to give the boat a performance vibe or feel. I don’t like hanging off the back of a cat all exposed. Am I wrong? People are buying them, so per your logic, I must be. No - reality is that everyone has a list of likes and dislikes, prioritizes them, and then buys a boat that ticks the most boxes. You coming here to argue with me about MY preferences is silly. I never said Seawind makes a bad boat. I just said I REALLY don’t like the helm position. I’ve been on several, and just don’t like them.

Oh. And that fiddly, requires a winch to fully open door - is dumb too. I’ll take the sliding doors that so many of the rest of the cat manufacturers use any day!

My opinion. My preferences. Cheers!

[sailjumanji]

Uh, I think the tiller would lose a lot of buyers. But we can agree on not liking the rear exposed helms. Even though I think the 1600 has them.

And every boat is a compromise. My personal dislike on the 1160 after two cruising seasons is the upright refrigerator. Very inefficient. Would prefer to have an in- counter unit like the freezer, and make the current fridge space storage. But I'd still buy another 1160 Lite faced with the other choices of the market today.

[Sand crab]

[QUOTE=Phyrcooler;3658480]
Oh. And that fiddly, requires a winch to fully open door - is dumb too. I’ll take the sliding doors that so many of the rest of the cat manufacturers use any day! /QUOTE]
Just wondering how heavy those doors are. Could 1 or 2 people just lift them into position?

[smj]

[QUOTE=Sand crab;3659259]

Originally Posted by Phyrcooler

Oh. And that fiddly, requires a winch to fully open door - is dumb too. I’ll take the sliding doors that so many of the rest of the cat manufacturers use any day! /QUOTE]
Just wondering how heavy those doors are. Could 1 or 2 people just lift them into position?

I helped lift the doors on a 1190 Lite with the winch and if I remember correctly they were pretty heavy.
Hard to compare the lifting Seawind doors to conventional sliders as the sliders wouldn’t allow the same amount of openness and access as the lifting doors do. It really is a well thought out beautiful design in my opinion.

[sailjumanji]

[QUOTE=Sand crab;3659259]

Originally Posted by Phyrcooler

Oh. And that fiddly, requires a winch to fully open door - is dumb too. I’ll take the sliding doors that so many of the rest of the cat manufacturers use any day! /QUOTE]
Just wondering how heavy those doors are. Could 1 or 2 people just lift them into position?

They are heavy, because each has a glass pane in them. That said, there are a few owners that are not fans of the rope-raised system, and posted that they lift by hand and then lock up with the preventer bar. I don't have issue with the current rope-lift system, as I think it's safer and more controlled lifting than swinging it up by hand.

Sliding doors mean that some of your view is going to be looking thru two panes of glass. With the Seawind tri-fold doors raised, and the removable glass windows above each steering system stored, that means only the forward glass is in place. And 90% of the time we sail with them fully open, so no glass to have to view thru when looking forward.

This is a view with the steering station windows in, but the front windows open. The four other saloon windows have black screens on them for shade, which can be removed (unsnapped) for a clearer view when sailing. Visibility is not an issue, regardless of how many non-owners "know" it is. Plus I've got a solid hardtop above my head, for sun, rain, etc. This pic also shows the retaining bar for the tri-fold door.

[Phyrcooler]

[QUOTE=sailjumanji;3659337]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

They are heavy, because each has a glass pane in them. That said, there are a few owners that are not fans of the rope-raised system, and posted that they lift by hand and then lock up with the preventer bar. I don't have issue with the current rope-lift system, as I think it's safer and more controlled lifting than swinging it up by hand.

Sliding doors mean that some of your view is going to be looking thru two panes of glass. With the Seawind tri-fold doors raised, and the removable glass windows above each steering system stored, that means only the forward glass is in place. And 90% of the time we sail with them fully open, so no glass to have to view thru when looking forward.

This is a view with the steering station windows in, but the front windows open. The four other saloon windows have black screens on them for shade, which can be removed (unsnapped) for a clearer view when sailing. Visibility is not an issue, regardless of how many non-owners "know" it is. Plus I've got a solid hardtop above my head, for sun, rain, etc. This pic also shows the retaining bar for the tri-fold door.

Thank you for posting the picture. You made my point for me.

I’m not saying you can’t see, or that it is a hazard. I just personally find it unpleasant to have so much of my view blocked by cabin. I don’t like looking through or around the cabin. Period. The end. As I said before, it feels like sitting in the back seat of a van to drive. Watch the Ruby Rose segment where they were pushing into some lumpy seas. The view through the cabin was absolutely nauseating. Peering through that 30” +/- tall window located a dozen or so feet away as it pitched up and down would have turned many sailors green. I know Nick was - because he stated so right on his video!

There are many ways to design a boat. And many ways to design a helm. I prefer to look over the cabin roof in many of the configurations that are currently offered out there. (NOT referring to a “Flybridge” cat however!) There are both production boats and performance boats that offer helms looking over cabin top. As I mentioned initially in this thread, I love the layout of the FP Isla 40. I didn’t say it was the best boat out there, just that I really liked the layout. I like the layout of the HH 50 OC with its single, elevated helm. I also like how Seawind builds their boats. I am just not wild about their layouts. That’s a subjective comment. I’m entitled to have, and express my opinion. As a “non-owner”, I still don’t like the helm location… no matter how much you try to convince me it’s the cats meow. I’m a “non-owner” - and one of the primary reasons would be the helm location.

I am absolutely happy for anyone that has a Seawind, and that it meets their needs, and the type of sailing they use it for. Everything I’ve seen crawling through them and reading online leads me to believe they are well built boats.
Cheers!

[LeeV]

I’ve always been a huge fan of the Seawind boats, but I agree the helm is somewhat of what I consider a “visual nuisance.” I’ve sailed on one, and when it got a little bouncy I could see I’d be moving around to keep an eye out, especially if it was dusk or rainy.
I was willing to get used to it, but I can’t get the Admiral to go with the galley down, no matter how I explain that there’s more storage, or that it’s wide open, etc… She points out that she’s the one who does most of the “galley stuff,” and that going up and down the stairs while underway is not something she enjoys.

I have no idea what our final (used) boat will be, but it’s proving to be an interesting source of conversations for us!

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by LeeV

I’ve always been a huge fan of the Seawind boats, but I agree the helm is somewhat of what I consider a “visual nuisance.” I’ve sailed on one, and when it got a little bouncy I could see I’d be moving around to keep an eye out, especially if it was dusk or rainy.

I was willing to get used to it, but I can’t get the Admiral to go with the galley down, no matter how I explain that there’s more storage, or that it’s wide open, etc… She points out that she’s the one who does most of the “galley stuff,” and that going up and down the stairs while underway is not something she enjoys.



I have no idea what our final (used) boat will be, but it’s proving to be an interesting source of conversations for us! [emoji3]

At this rate, when you find the boat that checks all the boxes, you'll be too old to use it.