New Gemini 105 or old Lagoon 380

[binkmann10]

I toured one today, love the sleek lines. Being 6'3", I found the headroom tight but probably acceptable. Is there anything specific to the Gem 105 that I should look for? This one is a 2008 model and they are asking $158K. The engine has 350 hours on it, and it has full electronics but no radar.

[SeaKing]

Look at the Lagoon TPI's

[Southern Star]

Joe, watch out for stress cracks on the Gemini. While the one you looked at may not have developed many/any yet, by the time you go to sell it there is a good chance it will have developed a large number on deck around the stanchion bases, genoa tracks, bow pulpit etc. This tends to drive the resale price down.

While the Gemini actually sails quite well, the lack of bridgedeck clearance can prove to be an annoyance; heck, they are even known to slap at anchor in a chop. In addition, the visibility forward from the helm - to which you have already referred, will become even worse as the windows develop the inevitable hazing.

IMO the Lagoon 380 was so incredibly popular because it was a terrific boat for the price. While the same can obviously be said for the Gemini, it is not merely coincidence that the Lagoon cost substantially more initially. Not only is it roomier than the Gemini, it is more stable, will pound less, is more solidly constructed, has twin diesels, etc.

Yes, an older boat has the potential to be a money pit. However, there are enough on the market that you should be able to find one that was well cared for and which, at around 10 years, has recent sails/rigging, and not too many hours on the diesels (which, of course, pretty muich rules out ex-charter boats). A good survey should be able to help you to avoid any real disasters.

If you truly believe that this boat will be an interim vessel before the purchase of a mid-forties cat, I would suggest that the Lagoon 380 would be a mcuh better boat on which to learn. Moving from a monohull to a non-performance cruising cat is not really that difficult. Yes, you will have to pay much more attention to wind speeds on a cat as you will not have heeling as a reference point. But one of the greatest differences is in getting used to the increased beam (initially quite intimidating as you approach a slip), increased windage (and without deep keels, they have a much greater tendency to move sideways at slow speeds in strong crosswinds), and the appropriate use of twin diesels to overcome this in docking your boat. The Gemini, with less windage (in part because of the lower bridgedeck), substantially less beam and a single diesel will not allow you to become familiar with these traits before you move up to an even larger (and beamier) cat. Anyway, just my two cents.

Whatever you choose to do, enjoy!

Brad

[binkmann10]

After touring the Gemini yesterday and educating ourselves about the costs involved in relocating a Lagoon from one coast to another, we have decided for now to just stick with our Catalina 42. While disappointed, it is the most cost effective thing to do right now. When the time comes, we will likely go pick up a Lagoon 42 or 450 and sail it to Puget Sound ourselves and save the $20K to $30K we were quoted just to get a boat here. I want to thank everyone for their advice and opinion!

[geoleo]

I would keep the Catalina 42 before a gemini Lagoon 380s are a varied lotand a well maintained early one will cost $160 min a poorly maintained early one will cost $200k+ eventually and lotsa time and headaches.

[twohapence]

Hi

the Gemini is built to a price. Great if you want an occaisional boat to go sailing in but not so good as a long term investment.

I was seriously interested in buying a Gemini. Great views from the midships bunk, great performance. Reasonable price so I put in an offer.

The surveyors report was pretty damming. The main stringers had popped so needed to be rebonded. There wasn't enough reinforcement at the stress point so the flex had caused the gelcoat to crack. If you repait the gelcoat it'll crack again. If you apply paint then the paint will crack.

We walked away. I've seen a number of Geminis since and they all show the same faults. Nice idea - shame about the build quality.

[smj]

Originally Posted by twohapence

Hi

the Gemini is built to a price. Great if you want an occaisional boat to go sailing in but not so good as a long term investment.

I was seriously interested in buying a Gemini. Great views from the midships bunk, great performance. Reasonable price so I put in an offer.

The surveyors report was pretty damming. The main stringers had popped so needed to be rebonded. There wasn't enough reinforcement at the stress point so the flex had caused the gelcoat to crack. If you repait the gelcoat it'll crack again. If you apply paint then the paint will crack.

We walked away. I've seen a number of Geminis since and they all show the same faults. Nice idea - shame about the build quality.

Shame about your surveyor as he had no experiance with the Gemini before surveying the one you were interested in. Yes the Gemini is known for gelcoat cracks. Probably because of cheap gel coat, remember they were built to a price point. If the cracks in the gelcoat of a Gemini were from excessive flexing then every Gemini would be in a scrap yard after a couple of years of sailing. Seems to me the original early 80's Gems are still sailing.I think they are fine coastal cruisers but do suffer from the negatives of a cheap build.

[waikikin]

Originally Posted by smj

Shame about your surveyor as he had no experiance with the Gemini before surveying the one you were interested in. Yes the Gemini is known for gelcoat cracks. Probably because of cheap gel coat, remember they were built to a price point. If the cracks in the gelcoat of a Gemini were from excessive flexing then every Gemini would be in a scrap yard after a couple of years of sailing. Seems to me the original early 80's Gems are still sailing.I think they are fine coastal cruisers but do suffer from the negatives of a cheap build.

I'd be concerned about a surveyor that shrugged off structural defects(like stringers let go- what were they specced for!) with a "she'll be right" attitude, sounds like the surveyor did his job. It's true that gelcoats cracks can be of little consequence(some are apparent from initial de-molding) but they do & can indicate further investigation. Jeff.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by JoeBink

I toured one today, love the sleek lines. Being 6'3", I found the headroom tight but probably acceptable. Is there anything specific to the Gem 105 that I should look for? This one is a 2008 model and they are asking $158K. The engine has 350 hours on it, and it has full electronics but no radar.

That is about right for the asking price.

Make sure the steering is an easy one-finger turning lock to lock.

With the drive leg all the way up push it from one side to the other. It should flop over without much effort (you should not lift more than the weight = no binding)

Look at the drive leg latch itself. It is an L-shaped piece that locks on the leg. It should have a perfect 90°.

With the drive leg all the way down and locked the latch should be flush with the part of the leg it hits.

Centerboards should go up and down smoothly with a "thump" when all the way up. Put all the way down and not tightened they should "float" back up part way. Many do leak which is not really an issue on strength, longevity, or anything really. Just nicer to release and have pop up part way for you.

105Mc don't usually have a problem but in the aft end of the aft bunks there is a buoyancy tank with inspection port. Make sure all is dry in there. Should smell like fiberglass and not mold. In fact there will be a lot of construction fiberglass debris - usually.

Sometimes one of the forward windows leaks, well, sooner or later (10+ years?). Easy fix for pro. Moderate fix for amature. Trick is to do it right the first time. You can join the Gem Yahoo group and find more than you need to know.

It can look like a forward window is leaking and that is not it. Sometimes the water goes to the head near the vanity. Not to worry. There is an inspection port on the bow right at the tip. Seal it with sealant. Leaking, the water comes back to where you see it inside sometimes.

Then all the regular boat stuff. Most of which should not be a problem with a Gem that new.

Hatches, batteries, solar controller, head, sea cocks, hoses, switching valves, radio, 110v plug, 12v panel,..........you know.

Gems seem to get a bad rap a lot but if you understand they are a price-point boat (what isn't eh?) they offer a lot of Bang.

I know the thread is about Gem vs Lagoon - no comparison. Different fruit.

If you want you can look at a PDQ - if you can find one.

But nothing fits in a regular slip. Only a Gem. And anchoring in 3ft of water is really cool.

GAD, I sound like I am selling my Gem and I already did!

[smj]

Originally Posted by waikikin

I'd be concerned about a surveyor that shrugged off structural defects(like stringers let go- what were they specced for!) with a "she'll be right" attitude, sounds like the surveyor did his job. It's true that gelcoats cracks can be of little consequence(some are apparent from initial de-molding) but they do & can indicate further investigation. Jeff.

I absolutely agree with you regarding the stringer. It would definitely need further investigation. My problem is in regards to the gelcoat cracking. Its been a trait of the Geminis since they first went into production. A surveyor who doesn't know this about the Gemini is doing the buyer a disservice. I guess it's important to hire a surveyor that is familiar with the vessel your interested in.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by smj

I absolutely agree with you regarding the stringer. It would definitely need further investigation. My problem is in regards to the gelcoat cracking. Its been a trait of the Geminis since they first went into production. A surveyor who doesn't know this about the Gemini is doing the buyer a disservice. I guess it's important to hire a surveyor that is familiar with the vessel your interested in.

A surveyor is a surveyor , if Geminis have gelcoat cracking from the begining is a reason to blame the builder, not the surveyor because dont know this is a particular problem in Geminis, Gelcoat cracking mean laminate flexing or worst lack of stringers or suports, is a matter of fact that anyone found bad gelcoat cracking know or suspect there is a problem , bad quality Gelcoat? nahhhh if the structure is sound and well designed doesnt matter what you put overthere, gelcoat, paint, or nothing, and the proper way to repair gelcoat cracks is to reinforce first or investigate why is cracking.
Cheers.

[smj]

Originally Posted by neilpride

A surveyor is a surveyor , if Geminis have gelcoat cracking from the begining is a reason to blame the builder, not the surveyor because dont know this is a particular problem in Geminis, Gelcoat cracking mean laminate flexing or worst lack of stringers or suports, is a matter of fact that anyone found bad gelcoat cracking know or suspect there is a problem , bad quality Gelcoat? nahhhh if the structure is sound and well designed doesnt matter what you put overthere, gelcoat, paint, or nothing, and the proper way to repair gelcoat cracks is to reinforce first or investigate why is cracking.
Cheers.

All boats flex somewhat. Gelcoat is more brittle than the laminate so it will show the cracks before the laminate has harm done to it. Cheap gelcoat will crack before good gelcoat just as to thick a coat of gelcoat will crack easier. My point was if the surveyor had experiance with the Geminis he would know that they are prone to gelcoat cracking without having structural damage.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by smj

My point was if the surveyor had experiance with the Geminis he would know that they are prone to gelcoat cracking without having structural damage.

Yep.

Pretty stupid but that is the way all of them are. Not that I have seen them all.

[Dulcesuenos]

I think it could be debated whether its structural integrity or lack of strength that causes the serious cracking. I have seen a 3 year old cat with serious cracking in places there should be none. I have seen a 3200 and a 3400 that didn't have cracking as bad as two newer ones I viewed. Not sure what this says but more people that have had to do major repairs have discovered some really cut corners in the build process. I have also noticed prices dropping drastically on newer used models

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

I think it could be debated whether its structural integrity or lack of strength that causes the serious cracking. I have seen a 3 year old cat with serious cracking in places there should be none. I have seen a 3200 and a 3400 that didn't have cracking as bad as two newer ones I viewed. Not sure what this says but more people that have had to do major repairs have discovered some really cut corners in the build process. I have also noticed prices dropping drastically on newer used models

I don't know for sure. Maybe the newer 105s and up flex more. The 3000 series (3000 > 3200 > 3400) are different boats. The factory burned and molds lost. The new factory opened with a completely different boat - the 105 > 105M > 105Mc