New Gemini 105 or old Lagoon 380

[ty.gregory]

So, I think we have put to rest the "Hunter' influence on the Gems in accord to build quality. Hunter just helps in the distribution, or sales... I don't know. The old man retired, new blood, are older Gems now considered better boats than the brand new? If so, shame on the new blood...

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by ty.gregory

So, I think we have put to rest the "Hunter' influence on the Gems in accord to build quality. Hunter just helps in the distribution, or sales... I don't know. The old man retired, new blood, are older Gems now considered better boats than the brand new? If so, shame on the new blood...

I am assuming you are asking me.

Hunter now builds the Gemini under contract I believe.

I think Performance Cruising (the company that Tony and Sue Smith had that built Geminis) was bought by the Catamaran Company.

The 105 series has been built since some time in the 90s I believe. Hunter has so far only built a few.

The 105 were considered better. There are those that still like some of the older boats features though. Upgrading/retooling is common among boat builders I think.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by smj

All boats flex somewhat. Gelcoat is more brittle than the laminate so it will show the cracks before the laminate has harm done to it. Cheap gelcoat will crack before good gelcoat just as to thick a coat of gelcoat will crack easier. My point was if the surveyor had experiance with the Geminis he would know that they are prone to gelcoat cracking without having structural damage.

I am not really sure that a Surveyor knowing that "they all do that" means that the boat has no structural damage - or won't be having any, sooner or later.

If the hull flexes too much (and gelcoat failing a good indication that flexing more than allowed for at the design stage) will sooner or later cause anything "stuck" to the panel to fail - stringers / bulkheads / interior moulding / deck joint (what order and what degree before failing badly will depend on the boat).....it's really a cumulative effect, kinda like flexing a piece of tin in your hands - eventually the panel flexing will weaken enough to fail - but before that happens, anything stuck on (like paint) will have popped off at the points of stress.

The "easy" answer is to beef up the hull / stringers - but that may well transfer stresses elsewhere which the designer did not allow for.

Personally if "they all did that" - then I would look to spend 6 digits on something where "they did not all do that". But each to their own.

errrr.....and just to make clear that is not specific to the number of hulls involved .

[smj]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I am not really sure that a Surveyor knowing that "they all do that" means that the boat has no structural damage - or won't be having any, sooner or later.

If the hull flexes too much (and gelcoat failing a good indication that flexing more than allowed for at the design stage) will sooner or later cause anything "stuck" to the panel to fail - stringers / bulkheads / interior moulding / deck joint (what order and what degree before failing badly will depend on the boat).....it's really a cumulative effect, kinda like flexing a piece of tin in your hands - eventually the panel flexing will weaken enough to fail - but before that happens, anything stuck on (like paint) will have popped off at the points of stress.

The "easy" answer is to beef up the hull / stringers - but that may well transfer stresses elsewhere which the designer did not allow for.

Personally if "they all did that" - then I would look to spend 6 digits on something where "they did not all do that". But each to their own.

errrr.....and just to make clear that is not specific to the number of hulls involved .

I've never noticed any stress cracks in the hulls just on the decks. My thought is that if there was the proper thickness of good quality gelcoat used there probably wouldnt be any stress cracks. Over 1000 boats built and none that I know of that have fallen apart yet which means there is probably no structural damage. But I agree, it's hard to shell out that kind of money for a boat with stress cracks or knowing it will get stress cracks. Maybe stress cracks is the wrong phrase to use.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by smj

I've never noticed any stress cracks in the hulls just on the decks. My thought is that if there was the proper thickness of good quality gelcoat used there probably wouldnt be any stress cracks. Over 1000 boats built and none that I know of that have fallen apart yet which means there is probably no structural damage. But I agree, it's hard to shell out that kind of money for a boat with stress cracks or knowing it will get stress cracks. Maybe stress cracks is the wrong phrase to use.

Right.

[SearenitySail]

Originally Posted by Therapy

...Performance Cruising (the company that Tony and Sue Smith had that built Geminis)...

...The 105 series has been built since some time in the 90s...

...The 105 were considered better...Upgrading/retooling is common among boat builders I think.

Therapy,
To add a little -- The Gemini 105M first appeared in 1995 and the 105Mc in 2003 (it had a foot taller mast among other things).

I believe the relationship with Hunter started a couple of years ago when they were brought in to freshen up the interior--I think that was supposed to be an upgrade with different woods.

Some of the differences between the 105M and 105Mc are, according to Tony's daughter, "...The Gemini 105M was the prior model and it had a very different cockpit that could not be enclosed easily with canvas, the interior was a lot of small pieces whereas the 105MC is one continuous pan liner. This dramatically increased the strength and stiffness of the boat, improved the fit and finish and the performance because it reduced the weight. With the introduction of the Hunter-designed interior this has dramatically changed and upgraded the interior once again with a much richer cherry wood interior..."

She explains some of the reasons for the Hunter partnership in this interview: Gemini Catamarans For Sale at SailTime in North America

I don't know if it was a 105M or 105Mc that Tony Smith sailed across the Atlantic from Annapolis to Southampton, England but since he did it in 2001 I imagine it was a 105M.

Marshall

[Mr B]

From what I have read,
Tony ripped out a lot of the wood from the interior of the Gemini after he did his Atlantic crossing to reduce weight,

I dont know which model he started doing that on, or even if he did,

Maybe some one on here could give a bit more info on it,

I for one, would be very interested to find out, And the boat number that he started with,
Year is not sufficient, as a few boats could have been made in the same year, some with removed weight, some without,

[webejammin]

It was the 105Mc that crossed the Atlantic in. Here is the link Gemini 105Mc - Transatlantic Voyage on Vimeo . We love our 02 Gemini 105Mc with screecher track, it is probably the best bang for the bucks and serves my wife and I well. I don't have the handy cap of being over 6 ft tall ( just .25 under 6 ft ) so I fit well. We find sailing in the enclosed cockpit in the winter months is sweet especially with a little heat. We also like only paying for a std slip even if we have our dingy on the davit and the hammock couch it still fits in a 40 ft slip.

[la reverie]

I was wondering if anybody got picture example of these stress cracks. I would be very interested in seeing how bad it really looks.

Google picture search game up with zero examples..

[Dulcesuenos]

Just go view one if you can. We looked at an older 3400 it had less cracks and less severe in size cracking than a 2008 105 we looked at. The 105 was covered in cracks you could slide a business card into. To me it was so unappealing visually. At half the price i still would have walked. It also flexed every where we walked. We purchased a 1994 Cat diff make with no cracks.

[la reverie]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Just go view one if you can. We looked at an older 3400 it had less cracks and less severe in size cracking than a 2008 105 we looked at. The 105 was covered in cracks you could slide a business card into. To me it was so unappealing visually. At half the price i still would have walked. It also flexed every where we walked. We purchased a 1994 Cat diff make with no cracks.

Sounds bad, I would have walked away from it too, unfortunately there are no Gemini's in Thailand.