New outremer model coming

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

it is personal choice. If I had to choose between 10 years enjoying O 55 starting at 65 (because had to make that extra cash for buy and maint) and extra 10 years with L 400 - starting at 55, means retire 10 years earlier, i choose L 400.

If already had money or make enough while sailing, would go O 55, no questions asked.

There are other 39 foot boats (the Lagoon 400 is 39 foot 3 inches or 11.97 metres in the majority of the world) or thereabouts give or take 300 mm, that offer differring combinations, but you like your boat and I notice you do work at getting the best from it, so you are happy. Those that choose an O55 are probably also happy.

[Zzmeyer]

Originally Posted by Factor

There are other 39 foot boats (the Lagoon 400 is 39 foot 3 inches or 11.97 metres in the majority of the world) or thereabouts give or take 300 mm, that offer differring combinations, but you like your boat and I notice you do work at getting the best from it, so you are happy. Those that choose an O55 are probably also happy.

Bingo

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by fxykty

What are the associated disadvantages are of more speed? Regardless, it’s more fun to be able to sail well in more conditions, regardless of the ratio of time spent sailing vs anchored. And arguably safer.

What’s prestige got to do with it? That price for a 55 foot boat is not out of line of many other premium makes, catamaran and monohull. If you got the $$$ you can play. If not, make whatever adjustments you need to and be happy.

When I'm thinking about this I value performance that a) enables me to sail without going for the engine start button, and b) provides as comfortable a ride as possible even in crappy conditions.

Average speed, yes, obviously also, but I've settled into the thought that 8-9 knots average is great, and substantially over 10 can get too hairy for cruising.

[Barra]

The main advantage of a performance cruiser cat like the O55 is not in sailing faster but in sailing more often. Ie in lighter winds and in heavy winds.

Motoring is not fun or we would all have trawlers.

A close second is comfortable motion at speed.

I would be very surprised if this boat didn't average 11 to 12 knot passages if sailed to it's potential and hardly using the motors to do it.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Barra

The main advantage of a performance cruiser cat like the O55 is not in sailing faster but in sailing more often. Ie in lighter winds and in heavy winds.

Motoring is not fun or we would all have trawlers.

A close second is comfortable motion at speed.

I would be very surprised if this boat didn't average 11 to 12 knot passages if sailed to it's potential and hardly using the motors to do it.

I think you are overestimating performance. Performance goes up unfortunately logarithmically with $$$. Double $$ you get 20% if you lucky See this year ARC results. Canadian Outremer somewhere in 50'es waterline with factory crew managed to overtake lagoon 52 for around 20 %. Both of them also have blog. And this one managed to overtake Lagoon 400 for another ~ 20%.

Better movement in water in any conditions, agree.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I think you are overestimating performance. Performance goes up unfortunately logarithmically with $$$. Double $$ you get 20% if you lucky See this year ARC results. Canadian Outremer somewhere in 50'es waterline with factory crew managed to overtake lagoon 52 for around 20 %. Both of them also have blog. And this one managed to overtake Lagoon 400 for another ~ 20%.

Better movement in water in any conditions, agree.

Your guess of 20 % of speed difference is not far off, I would say probably 25-30% is more realistic beteen Lagoon 40 and O 55. (ARC results are never a good basis of comparison for a number of reason..)
First of all, in a passage of 10 days that makes 2-3 days difference which is a lot.. More importantly, as Barra said, the difference becomes much more significant in light winds. For a Lagoon, FP, etc. you need at least 10 kts of real wind (and in the right direction..) to start even thinking of sailing. Catana , Outremer kind of boats easily sail at 5-6 kts @ 8-9 kts of wind.

Cheers

Yeloya

[Zzmeyer]

"ARC results are never a good basis of comparison for a number of reason..)" Don't disagree. What do you think of the TCF (Time correction factor) used by the ARC? When I went looking for a cat I found it very difficult to find objective performance measures. Few cats race or have PHRF ratings. The polars are generated by the manufacturer probably using the most favorable VPP program for their design. Talking to production boat manufacturers they all said theirs was the fastest. Clearly there is a difference between performance cats like an Outremer and a Lagoon, but would love some relatively objective sources. The TCF used by the ARC did provide me some interesting data. First, the Outremer 5X is 35% faster than the Lagoon 400 (the 51 is 28%) and the Lagoon 40 was the slowest rated cat in the fleet (and one of the smallest).

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Your guess of 20 % of speed difference is not far off, I would say probably 25-30% is more realistic beteen Lagoon 40 and O 55. (ARC results are never a good basis of comparison for a number of reason..)
First of all, in a passage of 10 days that makes 2-3 days difference which is a lot.. More importantly, as Barra said, the difference becomes much more significant in light winds. For a Lagoon, FP, etc. you need at least 10 kts of real wind (and in the right direction..) to start even thinking of sailing. Catana , Outremer kind of boats easily sail at 5-6 kts @ 8-9 kts of wind.

Cheers

Yeloya

Not true, we set sail from 5kn up depending on the point of sail of course. The 400 is not that bad, but is not a racing cat either. If you strip her down of all comfort, she can be fast too, on the other hand, if you add all the comfort and liveability to a O55, she will be heavy and slow too. Besides the length difference of 15ft, and that is a lot when it comes to speed, they are not too much off.

You have to compare apples to apples, take a cat of the same cathegory, price and outfit and there will be very similar results.

Did you ever sailed a Lagoon or Outremar?

[Zzmeyer]

CatNewBee, you raise a critical issue. When I first went looking for a cat I was surprised how slow some cruising cats were sailed. I then did a 750 nm sail against a Leopard 48 that was well equipped and well sailed while I was on my Sense 50. Off wind, yes, but I was impressed with her performance. Take a boat with a dirty hull, blown out sails poorly trimmed, a fixed prop and you will make a huge difference in speed. I don't think any 40 foot Lagoon, FP or Leopard sailor has ever been disappointed that it can't keep up with a fifty plus foot Outremer.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I think you are overestimating performance. Performance goes up unfortunately logarithmically with $$$. Double $$ you get 20% if you lucky See this year ARC results. Canadian Outremer somewhere in 50'es waterline with factory crew managed to overtake lagoon 52 for around 20 %. Both of them also have blog. And this one managed to overtake Lagoon 400 for another ~ 20%.

Better movement in water in any conditions, agree.

"Better movement in water in any conditions, agree." - AGREE

The ARC is not a good example of "any conditions" in fact the route is chosen for having the "most favourable" conditions.

Can't help but think the new O55 at 13.5T LD and 2x60hp won't perform as well as the O51 at 10.9T LD and 2x40hp.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Not true, we set sail from 5kn up depending on the point of sail of course. The 400 is not that bad, but is not a racing cat either. If you strip her down of all comfort, she can be fast too, on the other hand, if you add all the comfort and liveability to a O55, she will be heavy and slow too. Besides the length difference of 15ft, and that is a lot when it comes to speed, they are not too much off.

You have to compare apples to apples, take a cat of the same cathegory, price and outfit and there will be very similar results.

Did you ever sailed a Lagoon or Outremar?

problem with L 400 is that has so much space and toom for every goodie that exists on larger cats. When people add all the goodies boat actually becomes slow except in strong winds. And I guess that is where that negativity about performance of L 400 comes from.

We are loaded relatively little although liveaboards, and have accordingly better performance and simpler life. Normally matching 45 ft cat or monos in 50's length. Including sub 10kn winds. It does help i like playing with sails.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

"Better movement in water in any conditions, agree." - AGREE

The ARC is not a good example of "any conditions" in fact the route is chosen for having the "most favourable" conditions.

Can't help but think the new O55 at 13.5T LD and 2x60hp won't perform as well as the O51 at 10.9T LD and 2x40hp.

This.

The new O55 is an attempt to add more of those amenities that buyers of the ‘condo’ cats want while keeping as much of the Outremer sailing qualities as possible.

It may even be slower than our first generation O55!! But it will have nicer accommodations and those convertible helms are great.

[smj]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Not true, we set sail from 5kn up depending on the point of sail of course. The 400 is not that bad, but is not a racing cat either. If you strip her down of all comfort, she can be fast too, on the other hand, if you add all the comfort and liveability to a O55, she will be heavy and slow too. Besides the length difference of 15ft, and that is a lot when it comes to speed, they are not too much off.

You have to compare apples to apples, take a cat of the same cathegory, price and outfit and there will be very similar results.

Did you ever sailed a Lagoon or Outremar?

The Outemer 55 is 16’ longer, has more sail area, is 2 tons lighter and has a bwl/ lwl of 12.2 compared to Lagoons 5.9. There is absolutely no comparison in performance.
There would be no reason to sail the Lagoon light as there would be no reason to sail the O55 heavy, not the design intent of either vessel.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

The Outemer 55 is 16’ longer, has more sail area, is 2 tons lighter and has a bwl/ lwl of 12.2 compared to Lagoons 5.9. There is absolutely no comparison in performance.
There would be no reason to sail the Lagoon light as there would be no reason to sail the O55 heavy, not the design intent of either vessel.

this is a bit extremist view. We have sailed number of cats, including seawinds, catanas, etc and we truly enjoy sailing our L 400. Ask my wife if you do not believe me.

I tell you what O 55 is about - it is acknowledgment that wives make decisions about boats. Wife will not budge on space and all the goodies once experienced. The only way for poor husband to sail faster is to get same/better accommodation and (much) larger boat. And that costs $$$$$$$. Definitely helps if one has $$$ printer.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

this is a bit extremist view. We have sailed number of cats, including seawinds, catanas, etc and we truly enjoy sailing our L 400. Ask my wife if you do not believe me.



I tell you what O 55 is about - it is acknowledgment that wives make decisions about boats. Wife will not budge on space and all the goodies once experienced. The only way for poor husband to sail faster is to get same/better accommodation and (much) larger boat. And that costs $$$$$$$. Definitely helps if one has $$$ printer.

I don’t think it was an extremist view just making a point that different cats are designed for different purposes.
To me it doesn’t make sense to try to turn a cat that was designed for luxury and load carrying capacity into a performance cat. And vice versa, trying to change a cat designed for performance into a luxury cruiser.
My wife has 28 years on 11 different cats and is fine with a performance cat with less space and comforts. I guess if we had a lot of guests or family come visit it would be different. Or maybe I’m just a lucky guy!
Don’t get me wrong, I applaud you for getting all the performance out of your Lagoon that you can, but your Lagoon will never perform like the O55 and the O55 will never give the luxury of your Lagoon.