New Seawind Model - Announcement July 10

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Alistair242

The first 1260 was completed in 2017 and was first shown in Australia in May that year.

True, wasn't exactly a new design though. I think with the current market being the way it is a 40 footer will be more popular than a 38 footer. And i'm pretty sure for the manufacturer a larger boat is much more profitable than a smaller boat. It would be pretty sweet if everything from the 1000 up to the 1260 gets updated to the new design though.

A side note. In the interview seawind said the 1370 is reinforced with kevlar below the waterline on the front. I wonder if Kevlar can be added to the layup of the 1160/1260. That would be pretty sweet for marketing purposes and peace of mind.

I also hope the 1370 can make the engine bay somewhat a crash bulkhead incase the saildrive leaks. I suppose enough silicon around the conduits would probably solve that issue if the engine bay door itself can be made strong enough.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Yihang

What are the chances of a new 1270 or even 1170 in the next 5 years? Part of the reason why the 1370 is more expensive on a dollar per pound basis has to be the design fees and new tooling. The 1160/1260 has paid itself off a long time ago.

A 500k 1270 with the design of the 1370 would cannibalize 1370 sells though. But 1160 and 1260 manages to both find buyers.

Hard to see seawind having two totally different design languages going forward. New buyers would be deterred by the thought of buying into an older platform when improvements are probably just over the horizon. Kind of like how the balance 442 is replacing the 451.

Frankly, I think they just filled the missing space in their line-up. As someone else mentioned, the 1260 only came out in 2017. And you need to check the equipped boat prices, not just the base price. An 1160 with options is going to be over $440k, and I think the 1260 will be closer to $600k. So your $500k 1270 is not realistic.

The 1160 is Seawind's "entry level" boat. Interior-wise, it was updated in 2016 when they came out with the new interior. There are other improvements that have been incorporated in the model over time: full hard top (no cutouts), carbon box beams fore and aft instead of the old aluminum tube, synthetic steering wheels, all new interior, eliminating almost all of the wood inside. The hull form is a pretty successful design - albeit not wave-piercing bows - but a good balance of narrow vs load carrying.

Finally, Seawind's issue now - from what dealers tell me - is not that they don't have enough models, its that the demand for their boats is so strong that deliveries on some models are two years out, or longer. That said, I also don't think is the right economic environment to open up a new factory, or massive expansions, etc. I'm quite happy knowing the company is stable and strong, and will be around to address any warranty issues that might occur.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Yihang

True, wasn't exactly a new design though. I think with the current market being the way it is a 40 footer will be more popular than a 38 footer. And i'm pretty sure for the manufacturer a larger boat is much more profitable than a smaller boat. It would be pretty sweet if everything from the 1000 up to the 1260 gets updated to the new design though.

A side note. In the interview seawind said the 1370 is reinforced with kevlar below the waterline on the front. I wonder if Kevlar can be added to the layup of the 1160/1260. That would be pretty sweet for marketing purposes and peace of mind.

I also hope the 1370 can make the engine bay somewhat a crash bulkhead incase the saildrive leaks. I suppose enough silicon around the conduits would probably solve that issue if the engine bay door itself can be made strong enough.

Ok, first, you do know they don't make the 1000 anymore, right? I think that ended about five years ago, and probably as you said, wasn't profitable enough.

I also think the Lagoon 380 - which although I don't really care for - has been really popular for Lagoon and in production for how many years? A lot.

Kevlar. If it makes sense, I am sure they would add it to the other models. But marketing purposes and peace of mind? I've been a Seawind owner since 2006, and active on the owners boards, and never heard of that area being an issue.

There is already a crash bulkhead in the bow, and the stern. I don't know about stern drives, as our Seawind 1000 and now our 1160 Lite both have outboards. But I guess the sail drive shares the compartment with the diesel engine? And you think it would be an improvement to allow the diesel engine to flood with water, if there is a sail drive leak? You sure are coming up with solutions to fix problems that I've never heard mentioned by other Seawind owners.

Are you shopping for a Seawind boat, or interested in owning one? I noted you have about 6 posts to-date, and all but a couple are what Seawind needs to do different to be successful. I'd say given the environment now, they are doing pretty well as-is.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Ok, first, you do know they don't make the 1000 anymore, right? I think that ended about five years ago, and probably as you said, wasn't profitable enough.

I also think the Lagoon 380 - which although I don't really care for - has been really popular for Lagoon and in production for how many years? A lot.

Kevlar. If it makes sense, I am sure they would add it to the other models. But marketing purposes and peace of mind? I've been a Seawind owner since 2006, and active on the owners boards, and never heard of that area being an issue.

There is already a crash bulkhead in the bow, and the stern. I don't know about stern drives, as our Seawind 1000 and now our 1160 Lite both have outboards. But I guess the sail drive shares the compartment with the diesel engine? And you think it would be an improvement to allow the diesel engine to flood with water, if there is a sail drive leak? You sure are coming up with solutions to fix problems that I've never heard mentioned by other Seawind owners.

Are you shopping for a Seawind boat, or interested in owning one? I noted you have about 6 posts to-date, and all but a couple are what Seawind needs to do different to be successful. I'd say given the environment now, they are doing pretty well as-is.

Hi There!

Thanks for the detail reply, please don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of seawind and being Australian supporting them makes a lot of sense for me. I wouldn't even dream of pretending to know how to run their business, they made some very smart moves and really is a great example of a good sustainable business, a great example of passionate people making products they are proud of. It was not my intention at all to suggest they are not successful, I think they are successful in more than one sense of the word. I rate seawind in the same league as sirius and boreal, all great examples of honest people making a product that they themselves love.

Now. Regarding the questions, again please don't take it the wrong way, i'am in no way trying to bash any seawind boats. The 1160 Lite and 1260 are great boats and fit the philosophy of simple boats that just work and can take you anywhere. Very Australian. Having said that there are always little things that can make them better. For example, on the 1370 the coach roof wraps around the mast so it's easier to reach the cars on the main in case you need to pull them down manually in a blow or remove the halyards after a sail. Although this might be an unintended consequence of the mast being brought back to allow for a bigger job to balance the sails better. On the 1160/1260 the coachroof seem to be a little far from the mast, it would be great to get your opinion on this.

The sail-drive issue is a genuine question. You are right, the 1160 lite with outboards negates one of the biggest failure points on sailboats. Now, If you did have a sail drive and it leaked in catastrophic way, I would assume the prudent thing is to sacrifice the engine instead of letting the entire hull flood? I know Amel sells this as a major feature, the engine is in it's own water tight well along with the tanks if im not mistaken. I believe outremer also has it in a well but im not sure if the tanks are elsewhere and are connected with conduits. The 1370 supposedly has a horizontal crash bulkhead in the front hull section so more of the hull can be protected without sacrificing interior space. The crash bulkheads on the 1160 are pretty small in comparison, I believe just the rudder compartment and a small compartment in front of the hanging locker. Obviously for 99.99% of owners this will never be a problem thank god, but it's like buying insurance.

Kevlar was just me thinking out aloud after watching the 1370 interview. I should have just asked the factory if they are willing to work it into the layup. Bavaria have been using that as a selling feature for years so I mentioned it would probably be good for marketing if they want to put it into the next update of the 1160/1260.

You are right I only have 6 posts. I have been lurking for probably more than 15 years. I went from wanting a Macnaughton penny junk rigged cedar stripped full keel, to a boreal 44 and now I must confess ruby rose has got me hooked on seawinds. I hope we didn't get off on the wrong foot because I really do see myself on a seawind in the future and it would be great to learn from experienced owners like yourself. I plan to charter a seawind in the Whitsundays when this covid thing settles down a bit.


Best,

Yihang

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Frankly, I think they just filled the missing space in their line-up. As someone else mentioned, the 1260 only came out in 2017. And you need to check the equipped boat prices, not just the base price. An 1160 with options is going to be over $440k, and I think the 1260 will be closer to $600k. So your $500k 1270 is not realistic.

The 1160 is Seawind's "entry level" boat. Interior-wise, it was updated in 2016 when they came out with the new interior. There are other improvements that have been incorporated in the model over time: full hard top (no cutouts), carbon box beams fore and aft instead of the old aluminum tube, synthetic steering wheels, all new interior, eliminating almost all of the wood inside. The hull form is a pretty successful design - albeit not wave-piercing bows - but a good balance of narrow vs load carrying.

Finally, Seawind's issue now - from what dealers tell me - is not that they don't have enough models, its that the demand for their boats is so strong that deliveries on some models are two years out, or longer. That said, I also don't think is the right economic environment to open up a new factory, or massive expansions, etc. I'm quite happy knowing the company is stable and strong, and will be around to address any warranty issues that might occur.

I was referring to the base price. I have the 1160 lite price list and as configured to my liking it will be around $390,000 plus 10% GST and delivery fees. Australians don't have to pay import duty because there is a trade agreement with vietnam.

$500K base price for a 1270 was just a fun guess. Like you, I suspect a well speced price to be around $600k. At that price you have a lot more options to think about.

Personally I hope they merge the 1160/1190 lines, update it to current design and offer dagger board and mini keel versions. I like the sleek 1260 like aft quarter of the 1190 but prefer the minikeels on the 1160 lite for grounding protection and more usable space in the galley.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Frankly, I think they just filled the missing space in their line-up. As someone else mentioned, the 1260 only came out in 2017. And you need to check the equipped boat prices, not just the base price. An 1160 with options is going to be over $440k, and I think the 1260 will be closer to $600k. So your $500k 1270 is not realistic.

The 1160 is Seawind's "entry level" boat. Interior-wise, it was updated in 2016 when they came out with the new interior. There are other improvements that have been incorporated in the model over time: full hard top (no cutouts), carbon box beams fore and aft instead of the old aluminum tube, synthetic steering wheels, all new interior, eliminating almost all of the wood inside. The hull form is a pretty successful design - albeit not wave-piercing bows - but a good balance of narrow vs load carrying.

Finally, Seawind's issue now - from what dealers tell me - is not that they don't have enough models, its that the demand for their boats is so strong that deliveries on some models are two years out, or longer. That said, I also don't think is the right economic environment to open up a new factory, or massive expansions, etc. I'm quite happy knowing the company is stable and strong, and will be around to address any warranty issues that might occur.

I was just quoted 2025 for a 1370... with a slot late 2024 if i agreed to show it. Too far out for our plans.

[yoyofella]

I've been lurking on the forum for a few years, but finally decided to join so I can add a little bit to this discussion. My wife and I are future 1370 owners (hull number in the low 20s). We really liked the 1260, but decided not to go for it due to lack of storage. We ultimately chose the Seawind 1370 after closely considering Balance 442. Below are some of the research I did comparing the Balance 442 and Seawind 1370 that lead to our decision.

My background and goals: Learned how to sail on San Francisco Bay on dinghys and 25' keelboats. I've also crewed on 30~40' boats in races. I enjoy going fast and am not afraid of getting wet. Most recently, I crewed on a Privilege 39 catamaran for a 17 day, 1500 nautical mile upwind passage from Mexico to San Francisco to get some first hand experience on the bigger cats. My wife has been mostly crewing, but is now learning through the ASA program. Our goal is to start cruising full time when we get the boat.


Seawind 1370 vs. Balance 442 comparison
====

Helms:
After doing many night watches during my upwind passage on the Privilege 39, I've ruled out any boat with an outboard helm knowing that either my wife or I will occasionally need to be there at night. We went to Annapolis last year and got to sail on the Seawind 1260, so we have first-hand experience on the twin helms and really enjoyed liked it. While I never sailed the Balance 526, I did get to check out the Versa helm at the boat show. Comparing the Seawind and Balance, both helms are equally well protected. Balance has a better visibility but Seawind's twin helm makes docking much easier. As we'll be mostly sailing double-handed, an offset sports helm like the Balance will remove one of us from being able to handle lines, it'll also make docking to port side slightly harder. This really should be a wash between the 2 boats, but our personal preference is to the Seawind's twin helm. I encourage everyone to charter a 1160 or 1260 just to get a first hand feel for it.

Sailing performance:
I think only Seawind has published the polar, while Balance has not. With a dagger-board, Balance 442 should outpoint the Seawind 1370 and perform better going upwind. However, Seawind is slightly longer and narrower and has 5% bigger main and 19% larger Jib, so may do better off the wind. Ultimately, I decided that I'll spend less than 5% of the boat's life sailing far above a beam reach. Dagger-board or not, bashing upwind in close haul is pretty terrible on a catamaran (learned this the hard way) and should be avoided if at all possible. This is a wash between the Balance 442 and Seawind 1370, but both boats are going to be above average compare to the other mid-40 cats.

Power management:
We already decided we don't want a generator, so power generation and management is very important for us. Balance is offering a super-sized 8kW alternator from Integrel Solution, while Seawind has the 200A alternator, or about 1/3 the size. This should be a big plus for Balance. My main concern is that Integrel Solution is just too new and reliability and serviceability may be suspect. In addition, Seawind's solution seems to be a fully integrated solution where everything from alternator, charger, battery will all be from Mastervolt. Most importantly, Seawind has a factory option for 2kW of solar on the bimini top, while Balance came nowhere near that. This is likely due to Balance having a smaller bimini as well as using up some of the hard top area for the raised helm as well as for the lines for running rigging. huge advantage to Seawind 1370.

Layout:
Balance has more cockpit seating option since it has just the versahelm. Based on the schematic it also looks bigger. Saloon design is very similar for both boats in both the galley, nav desk, and sitting area. Balance probably has more galley storage since the fridge/freezer are placed away. I really like the inside/outside engine bay access of the Seawind as well as the workshop in the starboard hull, this is probably where the Ruby Rose input really shines. However, I remember the Balance 526 had amazing serviceability of all major components. This is probably a wash.

Build quality:
Difficult to say, since both only exist on paper. Balance 526 was pretty amazing so I assume the 442 will probably be better.

Price:
Seawind's starting price is lower and comes with a significantly larger engine (40HP for Seawind vs. 30HP for Balance), but Americans have to pay the import Tariff for Vietnam but not for South African builds. Options pricing seems similar. I think the final fully kitted out price will be very similar.


As of today, both seems to stand out compared to the other 45' cat for the balance between performance and comfort. Ultimately, we decided to go with Seawind 1370 over Balance 442. We really loved the dual helm layout and the amazing amount of solar panels that can be fitted on the 1370. With 2kW of solar and a large Lithium bank, we feel comfortable that we can get all the power to cruise comfortably without having a generator. 1370 even has a build in rain catchment system which can further improve the off-grid ability.

There are two important intangibles that I am also considering:
1) Seawind is a well established builder with decades of experience while Balance is really still a semi-custom builder, so the after sales support may be stronger for Seawind.
2) With Ruby Rose involvement and the large social media attention this will get, this could become a very important benefit for Seawind owners. Not only do we get to watch the boat being built and sailed before owning, I suspect large owner base will also also have a chance to organize into a community to share their tips and issues with each other.

[Yihang]

Congratulations！ I use to take a 35 footer out of sausalito every weekend even when it's blowing 35 knots with rolling seas through the golden gate. I figured it was good practice. Hopefully one day soon I can sail back there on my own boat.

Australians don't need to pay import duty and its much easier to sail a boat home from Vietnam.

The 1370 really has a lot neat features. I really hope it eventually migrates down to rest of the lineup, as I really don't need the extra space but would love the updated pratical features like the rain catchment system you mentioned.

Looking forward to seeing the ruby rose saga.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I was referring to the base price. I have the 1160 lite price list and as configured to my liking it will be around $390,000 plus 10% GST and delivery fees. Australians don't have to pay import duty because there is a trade agreement with vietnam.

Personally I hope they merge the 1160/1190 lines, update it to current design and offer dagger board and mini keel versions. I like the sleek 1260 like aft quarter of the 1190 but prefer the minikeels on the 1160 lite for grounding protection and more usable space in the galley.

Well, I will agree with you re: the 1160/1190 merge. The cutout on the side of the stern makes it easier to board the 1190. Actually, they had to do it that way, because boarding from aft will have you stepping over the rudder.

We were at $376,737 invoice. We didn't opt for the second head, as I wanted that area for storage space, and 98% of the time it's only wife and I onboard when cruising. I also opted out of the sails, and had Neil Tasker at Barracouta Sails in Australia make them (Dimension Polyant GPL Lite Skin), opted for a Rocna anchor, installed my own radar and watermaker.)

Americans pay import duty, but the stated rate is 1.5%. And then there is some strange accounting done on value, and some other fees, but out US CBP bill came out to be $5,870 on $376,737 invoice - so 1.56% all-in. We also paid an import/export broker to handle all of this, but that only totalled up to $275 - money well spent. The big hit to us was 6.25% sales tax in Texas, on the full invoice value - no limit like Florida. OTOH, we did a trade-in off our previous Seawind, which got credited against the tax value.

The killer for US is shipping. Ours from Vietnam to Miami was $32,500 plus another $540 for insurance. OTOH, I wasn't going to sail it over from Vietnam, and it arrived shrink wrapped and pristine from the inside of the container ship.

[Yihang]

Wow, that's really really low. I know european VAT is 20%. Another somewhat of a loop hole I just recently found out was to sail the boat outside of Australia for a couple years then the GST is applied to the depreciated value. I still remember the time when there was no GST...

A little off topic but I just paid 25% import tax on a $300 manual espresso machine shipped from HK to Beijing, where I'm living at the moment. That's just hilarious...

[Doubleplay]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Well, I will agree with you re: the 1160/1190 merge. The cutout on the side of the stern makes it easier to board the 1190. Actually, they had to do it that way, because boarding from aft will have you stepping over the rudder.

We were at $376,737 invoice. We didn't opt for the second head, as I wanted that area for storage space, and 98% of the time it's only wife and I onboard when cruising. I also opted out of the sails, and had Neil Tasker at Barracouta Sails in Australia make them (Dimension Polyant GPL Lite Skin), opted for a Rocna anchor, installed my own radar and watermaker.)

Americans pay import duty, but the stated rate is 1.5%. And then there is some strange accounting done on value, and some other fees, but out US CBP bill came out to be $5,870 on $376,737 invoice - so 1.56% all-in. We also paid an import/export broker to handle all of this, but that only totalled up to $275 - money well spent. The big hit to us was 6.25% sales tax in Texas, on the full invoice value - no limit like Florida. OTOH, we did a trade-in off our previous Seawind, which got credited against the tax value.

The killer for US is shipping. Ours from Vietnam to Miami was $32,500 plus another $540 for insurance. OTOH, I wasn't going to sail it over from Vietnam, and it arrived shrink wrapped and pristine from the inside of the container ship.

So if you take delivery in Vietnam your invoice would have been $32500 less? In that case for some who wants to sail home taking delivery ex factory makes a lot of sense.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Doubleplay

So if you take delivery in Vietnam your invoice would have been $32500 less? In that case for some who wants to sail home taking delivery ex factory makes a lot of sense.

Yep, and you also save $3750 on shipping cradles, transfer to port, loading and handling - all on the Vietnam side. However, the factory launch and handover is $20,000. (Note that when the boat arrives US, the solar panels and assembly that extend off the back of the boat are tucked inside the cockpit, and the two halves of the mast and the boom are lashed on the deck. So commissioning required mast assembly, standing it, rigging, electrical and instrument wires, running rigging, etc. We installed the solar assembly using the boom, at the marina.) Prices quoted for US commissioning are around $10,000. So take delivery in US, adds cradles, shipping, insurance, commissioning = $46,790, excluding duties (which you have to pay whenever it comes into US). Taking delivery at factory costs $20,000.

Re: shipping, the factory got quotes from various shipping companies, and we chose and paid. Quotes included shipping dates. If I remember correctly, the 1260 that came on the same ship cost around $38,500, as it both weighed more, and occupied a larger space onboard.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Wow, that's really really low. I know european VAT is 20%.

Yeah, that was my thought - re: low duty cost - as well. Its amazing to me that you hear so many schemes from people trying to lower their duty levy in the US.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Hi There!

Now. Regarding the questions, again please don't take it the wrong way, i'am in no way trying to bash any seawind boats. The 1160 Lite and 1260 are great boats and fit the philosophy of simple boats that just work and can take you anywhere. Very Australian. Having said that there are always little things that can make them better. For example, on the 1370 the coach roof wraps around the mast so it's easier to reach the cars on the main in case you need to pull them down manually in a blow or remove the halyards after a sail. Although this might be an unintended consequence of the mast being brought back to allow for a bigger job to balance the sails better. On the 1160/1260 the coachroof seem to be a little far from the mast, it would be great to get your opinion on this.

The sail-drive issue is a genuine question. You are right, the 1160 lite with outboards negates one of the biggest failure points on sailboats. Now, If you did have a sail drive and it leaked in catastrophic way, I would assume the prudent thing is to sacrifice the engine instead of letting the entire hull flood? I know Amel sells this as a major feature, the engine is in it's own water tight well along with the tanks if im not mistaken. I believe outremer also has it in a well but im not sure if the tanks are elsewhere and are connected with conduits. The 1370 supposedly has a horizontal crash bulkhead in the front hull section so more of the hull can be protected without sacrificing interior space. The crash bulkheads on the 1160 are pretty small in comparison, I believe just the rudder compartment and a small compartment in front of the hanging locker. Obviously for 99.99% of owners this will never be a problem thank god, but it's like buying insurance.

Kevlar was just me thinking out aloud after watching the 1370 interview. I should have just asked the factory if they are willing to work it into the layup. Bavaria have been using that as a selling feature for years so I mentioned it would probably be good for marketing if they want to put it into the next update of the 1160/1260.

So re: the mast, we have a square top mainsail, and the head of the sail is rigged to pull up against the top sail batten car when the halyard is tight. When you drop the sail and the halyard goes slack, the head of the main is about 4 ft behind the mast, in the stack pack. Its no issue reaching it. We generally disconnect the 2:1 halyard block every time we put the sail away, and we attach it back to the end of the main traveler for storage.

The batten cars are ball bearing, and generally fall pretty quick. An occasional flush with fresh water, and a couple of drops of McLube One Drop will have them falling to a compact stack. Otherwise I am 5 ft 10 inches tall and I have no problem reaching forward to pull down any stuck cars. But you can check that out by just getting on a boat. Now all of that said, Seawind put three fold-out mast steps on the lower portion of the mast.

I have very limited knowledge when it comes to sail drives. On our boat, the steering cables come across in a box beam that connects to something of a tiller assembly in that compartment. The autopilot is located in there, the rudder reference, autopilot compass, the hot water heater. Anyway, I think sealing around those steering cables would be a problem. May be different on other models.

We actually visited the factory a couple of days, when our boat was being built. We got to see several boats, all in different stage of completion. Also enjoyed touring Vietnam a bit. Its a worthwhile trip, even from the US!

[Doubleplay]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

Yep, and you also save $3750 on shipping cradles, transfer to port, loading and handling - all on the Vietnam side. However, the factory launch and handover is $20,000. (Note that when the boat arrives US, the solar panels and assembly that extend off the back of the boat are tucked inside the cockpit, and the two halves of the mast and the boom are lashed on the deck. So commissioning required mast assembly, standing it, rigging, electrical and instrument wires, running rigging, etc. We installed the solar assembly using the boom, at the marina.) Prices quoted for US commissioning are around $10,000. So take delivery in US, adds cradles, shipping, insurance, commissioning = $46,790, excluding duties (which you have to pay whenever it comes into US). Taking delivery at factory costs $20,000.

Re: shipping, the factory got quotes from various shipping companies, and we chose and paid. Quotes included shipping dates. If I remember correctly, the 1260 that came on the same ship cost around $38,500, as it both weighed more, and occupied a larger space onboard.

Saving would be in the tune of $30K. That's quite a chunk change...