No love for trimarans - why?

[tatomaceda]

I just learned that a NEW NEEL 47 is coming out in Spring of 2019.
Rendering is exactly a hybrid between the 47 and 51.
More about it in FB.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

Because the drogue line is nylon (more stretch and very strong) and chafes easily, I use thimbles in the loop which can be bound in for extra security.
Anyway--this is not me--but this is the quick splice I use.

Thanks for the link to the splice that you use. i can see that a thimble would be needed as well as serving.

OK, so let me walk thru this: you have your drogue set and you have these eyesplices in the drogue line at 1/2, 1, 1 1/2, 2 etc boatlengths. Now you want to adjust the drogue angle or length. i get the part about using a winch, but how do you get the adjusting line attached to the drogue line? Are they attached before you set the drogue? Wouldn't that make a spaghetti mess?

im confused.

jon

[Redreuben]

Simpson Designs.
https://boatcraft.com.au/Shop/index....ex&cPath=32_33
The Liahona trimaran is not available. [emoji20]

[pbmaise]

Originally Posted by Redreuben

Simpson Designs.
https://boatcraft.com.au/Shop/index....ex&cPath=32_33
The Liahona trimaran is not available. [emoji20]

Thanks Spring is in the air maybe some of these will be sold. I updated spread sheet for next time I publish.

[captaingregger]

Interesting discussion on drogues vs sea anchor.

It's a judgement call, IMO. If you think you can't get out of the way of the storm, and you have at least 50 NM of sea room, use a sea anchor. Otherwise, use a drogue. Of course that also depends on the size and strength of the storm system and whether you think you just can't get out of it's track. I'll always opt for the Cassonova way and just set the sea anchor. But I want at LEAST 50 NM or more of sea room.

One Horstman I looked at, the owner was in not one but two hurricanes. He ran tires for his drogue. In one storm he actually sailed upwind to rescue a monohull couple that capsized. He said winds were 110 kts, seas were 11M. It took using the engine at full power to tack the boat in those conditions. Scary.

On my boat the previous owner was in many storms over the 15 yrs of global cruising and therefore had mand stories to share. During one storm in the Southern Ocean winds were 60 kts with gusts to 90 kts. He estimated seas at 40'. He said the boat was constantly surfing at 22 kts and he was pretty spooked by the whole ordeal. He said the storm lasted nearly 3 days. He was strapped into the pilot house with a 4-point harness, it was that rough. I asked him why he didn't set a drogue or the sea anchor. He said, he had the drogue ready to launch right at his feet but there was no way he could safely do it by himself. When I asked him if he was scared he said, "yeah, I was scared in the beginning. But then you see even when the boat would slide sideways down the wave face, she would correct in the trough and she was doing what she was designed to do." So he just sort of accepted that state of affairs and rode it out.

There is a lot of risk to setting a drogue or sea anchor DURING a storm. You have to do it early. And the only way to know if you're going to really be needing is to be up to date with the latest weather, etc. This was in the mid-1990s so I don't know if he had weather-receiving on board at that time. Today it's pretty easy to get on-board weather. Back then I think it was a little more complex, cumbersome, and less of a reliable process.

Both guys told me after the storm they expected to see spider cracking in the gelcoat or damage to the boat in various areas. Not one shred of evidence of any damage to the hull whatsoever. I think that's a testament to well-built Horstmans, IMO.

I'm not leaving the dock if I think there's going to be any sort of low pressure system developing along my course. But if I end up at sea, during a really bad blow, and if I believe the system is bearing down on me and I can't turn 90 degrees and out run it, then I'm putting out a sea anchor early and just accepting my fate from there. I suppose a drogue is the better call because it keeps you moving in the intended direction. But that also depends on whether you have the energy to keep running the boat for the 3 days you'll likely be running with that storm. I'd rather, set the sea anchor and take a breather. To me, dorgues are there for when and if the sea anchor or it's tackle fail. Surfing down waves at 20+ kts in a heavy cruising tri may be fun but it will fatigue you out in now time, especially if you're single or double-handed.

I carry two jordan drogues and one 28' paratech sea anchor. When I do a passage I use Iridium go and Garmin Inreach. I get daily weather via Iridium and my buddies usually track the weather for me and let me know if anything is developing or bearing down on me. As a backup I have sailmail over the HF radio, which I can get grib files from but it's slow and sort of a pain to use. I prefer the Iridium go with PredictWind and the guys at PredictWind are OUTSTANDING in customer service so I'm condisering removing all the HF equipment on my boat.

So I have the following satcom devices:
1 Iridium go!
1 InReach
1 Sat phone
2 ACR PLBs
1 EPIRB

How much more safety communication does one really need? I think the HF radio is superflous at this point. But I'd be curious if anyone has a different opinion on that.

[schoolboy]

Hello,
Curious what you think about having unstayed masts on a Horstman Trimaran?
Is it possible, what do you think? Lower maintenance etc perhaps?

Also, what do you think about powering such a trimaran as yours using 2 outboards in the Amas? They seem to be more economical, lighter, and easier to work on, replace than inboard. Of course, its gas on diesel. The Hondas seem to have extremely long life + electrical generation.
Do you know of any design, that would be a modernized Horstman tri about 45-55 feet? Homebuilt I mean, not a NEEL? The only one I can find is an older 50+ Chris White tri design, that's it (what do you think of Chris White's tri?(54 foot Hammerhead)
https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/hammerhead-54

Can't seem to find any Horstman type designs...
Would love to see pics of your tri.
Schoolboy

[Redreuben]

The closest I’ve seen to a Horstman type is the Chamberlain Cirrostratus. Plans not available but boats do come up on second hand market.
I think a Horstman has plenty of scope for a freestanding mast, solid build and plenty of bury.
Outboards in the amas is not a good idea, at all.

[Mike Banks]

Try a bipod mast instead. One can hang almost any rig from it.

[Franziska]

Bipod makes more sense on a cat. A trimaran has a main girder = it's main hull.

So the tri can be made to carry an unstayed rig more easy than a cat.

A cat misses this central girder.
Still, there needs to be enough bury, as stated above and there should be suitable bulkheads and stringers as well as deck reinforcements added.

[Mike Banks]

Franziska--

Not many trimarans use that large beam system any longer. Most now use a strong bulkhead at either end of the main saloon reinforced by a box girder in the way of the sleeping spaces, and a bi-pod mast puts very little downward strain at all on the hulls. They carry only the weight of the mast, the sails and furler, and the pressure of the wind in the sails which pulls on one leg and pushes down on the other. The fore and aft strain is taken as is any other mast that has stays--by the fore stays and aft stays. Unlike un-stayed masts which require a tremendous amount of strengthening of the deck and some heavy breastwork all around the masts at the point of pressure, not to mention the heavy mast itself and the extra thickness in terms of windage, as much as or more than the bi-pod rig, the bi-pod rig is un-demanding on the hull and easily erected and dismantled.

If one wishes to try a crab claw or any other non-standard rig, a bipod mast makes it a simple matter. Even a dhow rig could be dangled from one--as they were millennia ago,..

The bi-pod is simple and elegant--and needs only minor collapsible bi-pod lowering tackle to allow the vessel to pass under a bridge. Try THAT using an unstayed mast.

Personally, I would not even consider an un-stayed mast because of the costs and potential for disaster that one brings aboard. The vessel has to be specially designed for such a rig--and that rig is EXPENSIVE.

The lateral stability of the bipod makes it a breeze for any kind of vessel in that it eliminates the chain plates and the upward strain on them, as well as the down thrust those stays impart to the mast itself which must eventually be transferred into the keel--or if un-stayed, only a little to the keel and a massive amount to the decks and breast works, as well as the more rigid heavy decks decks and the required strengthening of the deck shelf--far more than needs be done for the mild-mannered but extremely strong multi-function bi-pod rig. If one wishes to hang a spinnaker from one--the mast is a perfect frame for it.


We should soon see more of them, because of the number of problems they solve and because they are CHEAP. The lateral stays on my tri cost me eight hundred dollars. More than a bipod mast set up for the aluminium tubing would have cost, and a standard fore-sail furler could have been used with a wishbone fastened to a second cable behind the furler, to give me a self-tacking furl-able mainsail--without expensive in-mast or on-boom furling.

The b-ipod rig was originally used on reed boats in Egypt, because of their low impact on the hull--thousands of years ago--because the only big loads on that rig come from the wind in the sails--and that is taken by the rear stays and the fore-stay.

Still--whatever works for the seas one sails is a good rig as long as it is safe in those seas. If I had to lower a mast at sea for any reason--I know which mast I would prefer to lower. One which would not try to dive overboard--and would lie down for'ard or aft, depending on which stay I released and where I stood my bi-pod lowering guide. If I use two masts, I could lower the main mast first--that might be enough--and the smaller mizzen with a lowering bipod lashed to deck cleats would take care of the mizzen if I needed to pass under an even lower bridge or replace mast-head gear.
..

[Mike Banks]

Sorry about the delay Jon.

I pick those intervals according to the anchor points available on my decks that will give me the angles I need if I wish to change the attitude of the vessel to the oncoming seas.'

If I use one of those as a permanent point of anchor for the bridle, then I will have to use a winch at one end or the other of the vessel to get the angle to the sea I require, either by pulling the stern around using a halyard winch and through a fairlead, (if the bow is made fast) or by easing the bow line off while keeping the stern firmly attached.

It may not always be the stern--the half-deck mid-cleat could also be used. All of these points must be extremely well fixed--the strains on them will be much greater than merely mooring a vessel at a marina..

Picture the drogue or sea-anchor deployed over the bow. I want to run the vessel so that the seas strike the hull on the starboard quarter.

First I anchor myself via a safety harness to a run cable rigged before the storm became severe. Often when at sea I will rig one regardless--it takes only a few moments, does not get in the way too much, and I use strong braided polyester rope for this--my harness has a snap clip on it, and with myself clipped on and secured to the vessel, I can make my way to the bow holding the length or rope I intend to use to pull the stern into the wind and seas, passing it around the deck stanchions, mast stays and everything else including the bow pulpit until it comes aboard by passing it above the bow roller and lying it next to the straining cable. I then recover enough of the drogue cable as necessary until I can shackle the stern line to the drogue cable through one of my spliced-in thimbles. Once the stern line is shackled on--the windlass is used again to pay out the recovered line until the two lines are sufficiently clear of the bow that I can proceed aft, and take the line though a fair lead and around a halyard winch. Tightening this winch little by little will pull the stern of the vessel into the wind and against the seas. Sometimes I may need to pay off a little more at the bow. It does not need to be much of an angle to the sea--and the difference in motion is lessened as some of the plunging eases. Just before it reaches the optimum angle to the sea, I slip a split length of heavy PVC tube, non-toxic is flexible and easy to fit, and then tie it to the cable so that when I winch it to the angle I need, the tube is stopping the fair lead from fraying the nylon. Nylon stretches readily--part of its advantage, but that allows it to rub. Both ends where the nylon comers aboard need to be protected from chafe.

[pbmaise]

After much thought, I think I am now determined to increase my solar capacity from 900 watts to 7,700 watts.

This will be coupled to three new appliances

1-18,000 BTU AC unit 48 volts
1-12,000 BTU AC unit 48 volts
1-new air cooled freezer 48 Volts
(I am going to freeze 25 lbs of ice per day which will have to be hand transferred to the fridge box. This eliminates the water cooled fridge.)

Also added will be new misters to cool the pilot house and new exhaust blowers for the engine room.

Other draw is the Spectra watermaker, a vacuum cleaner, and the piano.

Show me a catamaran or monohull that can do this.

[w32honu]

Great thread. I have enjoyed reading this.

If there is anyone interested in building I have available a complete set of construction plans for a Marples CC-37. Plan set #15.

We ended up building a custom Marples CC boat just a hair bigger.

PM me if you are interested.....

[Mike Banks]

If anyone has a set of plans for a Simpson Liahona, they would be much appreciated.

[Redreuben]

Mike there are a couple of them around that have been advertised but haven’t responded to my enquiries about plans, maybe if I was interested in purchasing said yachts plans may have been forthcoming but so far nothing.