Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

[Just Another Sa]

Originally Posted by StuM

Seems like you're agreeing completely with Just Another.

Thanks.
I guess you are among those few who understand that in order to analyse what the laws of physics allow and what not, it is required to analyse hypotheticals instead of the practicalities.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by StuM

Great, it will be easy for you to prove me wrong then, just post that test data.

Still waiting to see that test data that shows 300% improvement in regen

[SDChristian]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

LOL, looking back, it was YOU making the claim!

That is most certainly NOT what I said. The devil is in the details. Nor do I believe these claims violate the laws of physics:
First Electric Lagoon Crosses Atlantic

Now maybe they lied and did not achieve this; but I don't think it is impossible. The reason for this believe is simple: harvesting energy from the near hull speed and then re-introducing it at lower speeds will result in a increase in average speed because the energy held/used by .25 knots near hull speed will translate to far more than .25 knots if introduced at lower speeds. Not complex, nor does it violate the laws of physics.

[44'cruisingcat]

Ahh, but that's not what they're claiming to do.

[44'cruisingcat]

Anyway catamarans really don't have a "hull speed".

[SDChristian]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Anyway catamarans really don't have a "hull speed".

Forget hull speed; high speed vs low speed and the concept remains unchanged. And this most certainly is the concept behind their claims; harvest energy on the downside (read that: fast) and add that energy back into the uphill side (read that: slow). Whether they achieved it, I have no idea. But the concept is theoretically possible.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by SDChristian

That is most certainly NOT what I said. The devil is in the details. Nor do I believe these claims violate the laws of physics:
First Electric Lagoon Crosses Atlantic

Now maybe they lied and did not achieve this; but I don't think it is impossible. The reason for this believe is simple: harvesting energy from the near hull speed and then re-introducing it at lower speeds will result in a increase in average speed because the energy held/used by .25 knots near hull speed will translate to far more than .25 knots if introduced at lower speeds. Not complex, nor does it violate the laws of physics.

I am sure we will hear that OF COURSE they were lying. They must have been paid by Tether and Lagoon to say those things, it's all marketing hype and snake oil salesmanship, don't you know?

Too bad Lagoon shafted Tether, and messed up his system with their own wonderful engineering that produced many failed Lagoon DE Hybrid boats, and gave EP a bad name for years.

Just like the world cruisers in the latest SAIL mag article here,

Electric yachts - the future is here - Sailing Today

they must all be deluded to think they can break the laws of physics.

[SDChristian]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

I am sure we will hear that OF COURSE they were lying. They must have been paid by Tether and Lagoon to say those things, it's all marketing hype and snake oil salesmanship, don't you know?

Too bad Lagoon shafted Tether, and messed up his system with their own wonderful engineering that produced many failed Lagoon DE Hybrid boats, and gave EP a bad name for years.

Just like the world cruisers in the latest SAIL mag article here,

Electric yachts - the future is here - Sailing Today

they must all be deluded to think they can break the laws of physics.

I'm inclined to believe them. I just have to temper my enthusiasm on this forum because of how pathologically pessimistic most posters are here.

[Cap Erict3]

Originally Posted by SDChristian

I'm inclined to believe them. I just have to temper my enthusiasm on this forum because of how pathologically pessimistic most posters are here.

By all means hang on to ur enthusiasm. If you can justify and absorb the expense, buy serial number 1. ( I have a couple of $500 PCMCIA cards stashed somewhere )

This is the first time I have heard that LA batts may be coming on the market. I look forward to seeing customer reviews.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by SDChristian

I'm inclined to believe them. I just have to temper my enthusiasm on this forum because of how pathologically pessimistic most posters are here.

Yes I agree, I tend to believe them too, I was trying to be "ironic".

But I also think the last thing we need is to be influenced to moderate our statements by those who have a particular point of view, no matter how insistent they are. The open forum is a good venue for the free exchange of ideas, particularly opposing ideas. But I have called for a discussion on the strong arguments against EP for cruising by those who have the diesel mindset.

I was hoping to hear really good points to consider but we seem to be hearing the same ones, i.e.:

1. Diesel has so much more energy than batteries that the range you get is too restrictive. ANSWER: LPF batts can give you an hour at full power BUT you would not run at full power anyway because it gobbles kWh. If you back off just a bit, you can motor for hours. A DC genset to charge batts allows you to motor as long as your diesel lasts. Yes, you may be going a half to a knot slower than the ICE. Yes, if that really bothers you, stick with diesel by all means.

2. Diesel ICE is much more efficient compared to all the energy conversions in a Hybrid EP system. ANSWER: Firstly, ICE is about 30% efficient from what you put in compared to what you get out, but anyway even if it is technically more efficient (and I'm not convinced of that) SO WHAT? The only reason you are concerned about efficiency is the cost of the diesel, isn't it? If your diesel engine could run on Goji berry juice and it cost 5 cents a liter but only gave 50% of the power of diesel fuel, would you use it? Of course you would! You would use twice as much Goji berry juice to go the same distance but at a tiny fraction of the cost. So much for the sanctity of "efficiency". On the other hand, by far the highest percentage of Hybrid motoring will be on LFP batts, and they are recharged by solar and regen while sailing. That's REALLY efficient. And cheap.

3. EP does not give you enough power to cope with headwinds, tidal current, big seas. Answer: Size your system to give you enough power. And no, it is not the same kW rated as an ICE, it is less. Diesel ICE are over sized because you shouldn't run them at full revs, if you want them to last, that is. EP can be run towards high end of rev range indefinitely without advese effect on motor. That's what they are used for in industry. The torque characteristics of EP delivers high torque throughout the rev range and EP does not slow down when resistance is encountered, it draws more power to maintain revs. That is the nature of the beast and is different than ICE.

4. EP is more expansive than ICE. ANSWER: from a capex perspective, yes. From a TCO perspective, maybe yes maybe no. Do the math for your situation.

5. Hybrid EP is complex and prone to failure. Look at all the failed EP systems in the past. ANSWER: Yes there have been poor implementations and designs that have not been robust. But this is an OceanVolt thread, and from the OV perspective, they seem to have an enviable record of reliability. I am sure there are also other vendors with good systems too. But over 100 OV SD15 systems implemented, not one returned or claimed on warranty or "ripped out and replaced with diesel". It seems all existing customers very happy with system. Is there any evidence to the contrary? And if there is, where is it?

So, I'll ask again. Is there a killer reason that we need to know about that supports the proposition that EP is unsuitable for cruising? If so, what is it?

[beiland]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

It is BS to say a variable speed generator cannot power an AC motor. That is patently false. They are trying to justify their choice of DC motors. In the real world AC motors are powered by variable speed controllers that will run from DC.

I'm going to have to bow to your knowledge of these systems.
I just tried to read thru this explanation, and got totally lost ...ha...ha

[cwjohm]

Reframing the argument against EP correctly against the spin

1. Diesel has so much more energy than batteries that the range you get is too restrictive. ANSWER: LPF batts can give you an hour at full power BUT you would not run at full power anyway because it gobbles kWh. If you back off just a bit, you can motor for hours. A DC genset to charge batts allows you to motor as long as your diesel lasts. Yes, you may be going a half to a knot slower than the ICE. Yes, if that really bothers you, stick with diesel by all means.

It is spin when you respond to an argument with a completely different argument. Nobody argues that you cannot motor for hours with a Hybrid solution which by the way is NOT an EP solution. However, we assume for the sake of argument here that what we are discussing is a Hybrid.

The argument is about what size system you need and the fact that to retain the amount of redundancy you get with two diesels you need two generators.

For the size system you are talking about you are not talking about half a knot slower, you are talking several knots slower.


2. Diesel ICE is much more efficient compared to all the energy conversions in a Hybrid EP system. ANSWER: Firstly, ICE is about 30% efficient from what you put in compared to what you get out, but anyway even if it is technically more efficient (and I'm not convinced of that) SO WHAT? The only reason you are concerned about efficiency is the cost of the diesel, isn't it? If your diesel engine could run on Goji berry juice and it cost 5 cents a liter but only gave 50% of the power of diesel fuel, would you use it? Of course you would! You would use twice as much Goji berry juice to go the same distance but at a tiny fraction of the cost. So much for the sanctity of "efficiency". On the other hand, by far the highest percentage of Hybrid motoring will be on LFP batts, and they are recharged by solar and regen while sailing. That's REALLY efficient. And cheap.

Again a nonsense argument. It is about the cost of the solution including the capital cost. I would imagine that to design an engine that would run on Goji berry juice would be prohibitive. It is because diesel is so energy efficient that the overall solution is so financially efficient.

3. EP does not give you enough power to cope with headwinds, tidal current, big seas. Answer: Size your system to give you enough power. And no, it is not the same kW rated as an ICE, it is less. Diesel ICE are over sized because you shouldn't run them at full revs, if you want them to last, that is. EP can be run towards high end of rev range indefinitely without advese effect on motor. That's what they are used for in industry. The torque characteristics of EP delivers high torque throughout the rev range and EP does not slow down when resistance is encountered, it draws more power to maintain revs. That is the nature of the beast and is different than ICE.

Exactly true, but you totally exaggerate the advantage of EP above diesel. You equate 7Kw EP to 40HP Diesel which is not supportable. The exact equivalence is up for debate. I have stated that for example a 50foot cat requires 55HP motors. I would not therefore use EP less than 25KW, this requiring the equivalent in terms of generators and battery.

So it is not an argument that EP cannot give you the appropriate power. It is an argument as to what an appropriate amount of power is required with EP. I would argue that like for like EP will work but it is prohibitively expensive.


4. EP is more expansive than ICE. ANSWER: from a capex perspective, yes. From a TCO perspective, maybe yes maybe no. Do the math for your situation.

You TCO argument does not add up in the real world. Firstly, your EP, generator and batteries are undersized. See 1-3, and secondly you do not allow for battery replacement cycles. This has been outlined by Octopus in a real life example.

5. Hybrid EP is complex and prone to failure. Look at all the failed EP systems in the past. ANSWER: Yes there have been poor implementations and designs that have not been robust. But this is an OceanVolt thread, and from the OV perspective, they seem to have an enviable record of reliability. I am sure there are also other vendors with good systems too. But over 100 OV SD15 systems implemented, not one returned or claimed on warranty or "ripped out and replaced with diesel". It seems all existing customers very happy with system.

You seem preoccupied by this issue. In fact I have not seen anybody argue this. Every instance of EP being ripped out I know of is because the EP system did not meet real world criteria and not because of the implementation and design.

So the "Killer Reason" as you put it has absolutely nothing to do with the issues you outline, this simply being an emotive response to the real arguments. Nobody is arguing that Ocean Volt motors will not work. What they are arguing with is the marketing hype of diesel equivalence that they maintain.

The real argument stated thousands of times is that if you equip an EP system that has the same performance criteria, same power equivalence, and the same level of redundancy as twin diesels then it is going to cost considerably more and no amount of TCO bs will overcome that argument. That is why is has not been commonly adopted.

Aside from the EP zealots who are happy to spend big money to prove a point the average sailor will not adopt EP until it is proven to be financially advantageous.

So if you want to argue the issue, stop making out the EP protagonists to be anti-technology, or dismissive of an EP solution, as nothing could be further from the truth and debate the real issue which is what makes for an equivalence of performance and cost effective solution.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

1. Diesel has so much more energy than batteries that the range you get is too restrictive. ANSWER: LPF batts can give you an hour at full power BUT you would not run at full power anyway because it gobbles kWh. If you back off just a bit, you can motor for hours. A DC genset to charge batts allows you to motor as long as your diesel lasts. Yes, you may be going a half to a knot slower than the ICE. Yes, if that really bothers you, stick with diesel by all means.
So, your solution to the issue of having lower performance is...you don't need performance.

2. Diesel ICE is much more efficient compared to all the energy conversions in a Hybrid EP system. ANSWER: Firstly, ICE is about 30% efficient from what you put in compared to what you get out, but anyway even if it is technically more efficient (and I'm not convinced of that) SO WHAT? The only reason you are concerned about efficiency is the cost of the diesel, isn't it? If diesel engine could run on Goji berry juice and it cost 5 cents a liter but only gave 50% of the power of diesel fuel, would you use it? Of course you would! You would use twice as much Goji berry juice to go the same distance but at a tiny fraction of the cost. So much for the sanctity of "efficiency". On the other hand, by far the highest percentage of Hybrid motoring will be on LFP batts, and they are recharged by solar and regen while sailing. That's REALLY efficient. And cheap.

No one cares what percentage of energy in a gallon of diesel or in a battery is converted to propulsive energy. They care what the cost of propulsive energy is. In terms of "cost effiency" pure electric or hybrid fails to come even remotely close to the capability of diesel. If electric batteries held 50% of the energy that diesel does (without excessive cost), you can be sure, electric would quickly dominate the market as you could get reasonable ranges at reasonable speeds.


If you do care about the percentage of energy converted to propulsive energy, the hybrid loses because it has similar efficiency at the generator but by the time you convert it from mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical energy, you introduced enough inefficiencies to make it less efficient that a straight diesel drivetrain. (again, this is far different than a hybrid car where the hybrid system is used to smooth the power requirements allowing a much smaller ICE to be used.)

3. EP does not give you enough power to cope with headwinds, tidal current, big seas. Answer: Size your system to give you enough power. And no, it is not the same kW rated as an ICE, it is less. Diesel ICE are over sized because you shouldn't run them at full revs, if you want them to last, that is. EP can be run towards high end of rev range indefinitely without advese effect on motor. That's what they are used for in industry. The torque characteristics of EP delivers high torque throughout the rev range and EP does not slow down when resistance is encountered, it draws more power to maintain revs. That is the nature of the beast and is different than ICE.

More of that magic electric HP.

Diesels are not sized to stay WAY BELOW max power. Diesels are quite happy to run at 80-90% of max power for extended periods of time with negligible impact on long term durability. In most situations, you don't have the headwinds and tidal currents, so you are running at lower percentages of max power anyway.

If you size the electric motors so they are at 95% of max power at normal cruising speed, you have nothing left when you are fighting those adverse conditions.

Neither electric or diesel slows down much when they meet resistance. The prop simply tends to slip more but maintains a similar RPM. There is nothing magical about electric HP or torque.

4. EP is more expansive than ICE. ANSWER: from a capex perspective, yes. From a TCO perspective, maybe yes maybe no. Do the math for your situation.

The only way the TCO goes lower is if you spec an underpowered EP system and put it up against a standard Diesel system but if you want an underpowered system, you could cut the cost of the standard Diesel system by simply cutting the size of the Diesel.

5. Hybrid EP is complex and prone to failure. Look at all the failed EP systems in the past. ANSWER: Yes there have been poor implementations and designs that have not been robust. But this is an OceanVolt thread, and from the OV perspective, they seem to have an enviable record of reliability. I am sure there are also other vendors with good systems too. But over 100 OV SD15 systems implemented, not one returned or claimed on warranty or "ripped out and replaced with diesel". It seems all existing customers very happy with system. Is there any evidence to the contrary? And if there is, where is it?

If hybrid ever goes into mass production, it's probably a wash. For early adopters, the issue is new technology (often cobbled together with wild marketing claims from the supplier) compared to a mature established technology will be less reliable.

So, I'll ask again. Is there a killer reason that we need to know about that supports the proposition that EP is unsuitable for cruising? If so, what is it?

The killer reason: For the typical cruiser, it provides lower performance at higher cost and as it is currently, it's barely beyond one off systems cobbled together by enthusiasts. That keeps mainstream cruisers from pursuing it once they get past the idea of being eco-friendly (which it really isn't).

If you just want to get in and out of the marina on calm days (pure electric), it's perfectly viable now and even cost competitive but it's the rare 30'+ cruising boat that is bought with this as a design requirement.

A hybrid system is completely viable but will cost more up front and in terms of fuel usage (assuming similar use, you don't get to say the hybrid will simply not use the motor so it won't use fuel).

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Reframing the argument against EP correctly against the spin

1. Diesel has so much more energy than batteries that the range you get is too restrictive. ANSWER: LPF batts can give you an hour at full power BUT you would not run at full power anyway because it gobbles kWh. If you back off just a bit, you can motor for hours. A DC genset to charge batts allows you to motor as long as your diesel lasts. Yes, you may be going a half to a knot slower than the ICE. Yes, if that really bothers you, stick with diesel by all means.

It is spin when you respond to an argument with a completely different argument. Nobody argues that you cannot motor for hours with a Hybrid solution which by the way is NOT an EP solution. Yes, OK I use EP for short, let's call it correctly then, it is Serial Hybrid EP However, we assume for the sake of argument here that what we are discussing is a Hybrid.

The argument is about what size system you need and the fact that to retain the amount of redundancy you get with two diesels you need two generators.Some DC gensets are certainly more reliable than others, but yes, it is less redundant to have just one DC Genset. In our case we believe that is not a disadvantage.

For the size system you are talking about you are not talking about half a knot slower, you are talking several knots slower.Well, where does your analysis come from? For our boat we will get 5.25 knots at 4.85kW, 6.5 knots at 10kW, just over 7.5 knots at full power. I readily concede that this may be less than some diesel engine. Would it be less than a 15kW diesel on a 50', 13 ton cat? You tell me.
We have also done the maximum wind resistance & associated sea state analysis with the assistance of a naval architect, and our OV SD15 kW will push into about a 45 knot wind & sea at 3 knots boatspeed. Is this too weak? What diesel would it take to give the same result with a high windage cat? I have been told it would be 45HP diesels, and that is by the diesel engine companies themselves. So is 15kW Serial Hybrid functionally equivalent to 45HP diesel? It would appear so if we believe the diesel engine people.


2. Diesel ICE is much more efficient compared to all the energy conversions in a Hybrid EP system. ANSWER: Firstly, ICE is about 30% efficient from what you put in compared to what you get out, but anyway even if it is technically more efficient (and I'm not convinced of that) SO WHAT? The only reason you are concerned about efficiency is the cost of the diesel, isn't it? If your diesel engine could run on Goji berry juice and it cost 5 cents a liter but only gave 50% of the power of diesel fuel, would you use it? Of course you would! You would use twice as much Goji berry juice to go the same distance but at a tiny fraction of the cost. So much for the sanctity of "efficiency". On the other hand, by far the highest percentage of Hybrid motoring will be on LFP batts, and they are recharged by solar and regen while sailing. That's REALLY efficient. And cheap.

Again a nonsense argument. It is about the cost of the solution including the capital cost. I would imagine that to design an engine that would run on Goji berry juice would be prohibitive.Hang on, I was making a point, not literally saying Goji juice was viable!!!OK, lets try the petrol vs LPG case. You get 20% less mileage on LPG, but it is much less than 20% cheaper, more like 50% cheaper. Get it? It is because diesel is so energy efficient that the overall solution is so financially efficient.

3. EP does not give you enough power to cope with headwinds, tidal current, big seas. Answer: Size your system to give you enough power. And no, it is not the same kW rated as an ICE, it is less. Diesel ICE are over sized because you shouldn't run them at full revs, if you want them to last, that is. EP can be run towards high end of rev range indefinitely without advese effect on motor. That's what they are used for in industry. The torque characteristics of EP delivers high torque throughout the rev range and EP does not slow down when resistance is encountered, it draws more power to maintain revs. That is the nature of the beast and is different than ICE.

Exactly true, but you totally exaggerate the advantage of EP above diesel. You equate 7Kw EP to 40HP DieselNo, I am suggesting 15kW is functionally about a 45HP diesel which is not supportable.It is supported by almost every OV owner I've spoken too BTW The exact equivalence is up for debate. I have stated that for example a 50foot cat requires 55HP motors. I would not therefore use EP less than 25KW, this requiring the equivalent in terms of generators and battery.Ok, I respect your assesment, use whatever system you want to pay for. Your weight penalty will be massive and your TCO will be unviable, but I'd suggest you get on a Serial Hybrid boat first and see for yourself.

So it is not an argument that EP cannot give you the appropriate power. It is an argument as to what an appropriate amount of power is required with EP. I would argue that like for like EP will work but it is prohibitively expensive.The motors are pretty line ball cost to diesels, the genset is the genset, the batteries replace all the diesel you would ever use for your engines Plus all the maintenance & parts & service. How much would that be over your cruising life?


4. EP is more expansive than ICE. ANSWER: from a capex perspective, yes. From a TCO perspective, maybe yes maybe no. Do the math for your situation.

You TCO argument does not add up in the real world. Oh yes it does, otherwise we would not be taking this seriously Firstly, your EP, generator and batteries are undersized. See 1-3, We must agree to disagree and time will tell the tale and secondly you do not allow for battery replacement cycles. This has been outlined by Octopus in a real life example.How many cycles would an LFP bank deliver assuming between 50 to 90 SOC? Absolutely heaps.

5. Hybrid EP is complex and prone to failure. Look at all the failed EP systems in the past. ANSWER: Yes there have been poor implementations and designs that have not been robust. But this is an OceanVolt thread, and from the OV perspective, they seem to have an enviable record of reliability. I am sure there are also other vendors with good systems too. But over 100 OV SD15 systems implemented, not one returned or claimed on warranty or "ripped out and replaced with diesel". It seems all existing customers very happy with system.

You seem preoccupied by this issue.Do I? Am I the one who is trying to differentiate between different vendors and past systems, or am I the one who keeps talking about systems that are ripped out? In fact I have not seen anybody argue this. Every instance of EP being ripped out I know of is because the EP system did not meet real world criteria and not because of the implementation and design.Ok, without any information, just vague statements, tere is nothing to learn. This is where real information would support your case. I'm saying that there has been plenty of discussion on the specific faults that caused the system to fail/stop/go slow. Again, we'll agree to disagree until meaningful data emerges.

So the "Killer Reason" as you put it has absolutely nothing to do with the issues you outline, this simply being an emotive response to the real arguments. Nobody is arguing that Ocean Volt motors will not work. What they are arguing with is the marketing hype of diesel equivalence that they maintain.

The real argument stated thousands of times is that if you equip an EP system that has the same performance criteria, same power equivalence, and the same level of redundancy as twin diesels then it is going to cost considerably more and no amount of TCO bs will overcome that argument. That is why is has not been commonly adopted.

Aside from the EP zealots who are happy to spend big money to prove a point the average sailor will not adopt EP until it is proven to be financially advantageous.

So if you want to argue the issue, stop making out the EP protagonists to be anti-technology, or dismissive of an EP solution, as nothing could be further from the truth and debate the real issue which is what makes for an equivalence of performance and cost effective solution.

Ok, the argument for a 15kW Serial Hybrid OV SD15 is that when you rip out a 45HP diesel engine and put in the SD15, the OWNERS say it is about the same, and is in fact superior in some respects. It is better for making headway against wind and tide. It is better for docking in the wind. On DC genset, it uses less fuel at cruising speed. They use regeneration alot and most of their motoring is from regen into the LFP bank. What can I say? The story sounds compelling, and then there are those here that say it just ain't so. But the fact is not a single owner has replaced their OV SD15 system. That;s quite unlike your examples, isn't it? I will have data soon enough to put forth the objective case. I know you are not planning to convert just yet, so be patient.

[BigBeakie]

I'm sorry for the horrible green font. What was I thinking