Oceanvolt Servoprop regen tested by UMA

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Jamme

Apparently UMA just bought a Honda EU22 generator to reach Svalbard:

This is an interesting turn of events. After 11 pages of people debating this, is this an admission from the party in question that electric motors are not suitable for any kind of "remote" cruising without an abundant external power source?


I wonder if they are also collaborating with honda on this?

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Jamme

Apparently UMA just bought a Honda EU22 generator to reach Svalbard:

I am looking forward to their experience with this set-up. I have an Oceanvolt powered boat and I bought a Honda generator to take with me on long trips and it worked perfectly for me to replace the power used to motor on the one long trip I needed it for. The only issue I had was trying to run it while sailing as the angle of heel was greater than the unit is made to operate under and it shut off.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

This is an interesting turn of events. After 11 pages of people debating this, is this an admission from the party in question that electric motors are not suitable for any kind of "remote" cruising without an abundant external power source?


I wonder if they are also collaborating with honda on this?

What if you looked at it with a less jaundiced eye? They will sail when they can, regenerating all the while, motor on battery when they have the capacity and now have a back-up for the extreme situations where they don't have enough power storage. Most of those scenarios save the environment and one is less than perfect. I have an auxiliary Honda generator that I have not needed to put on the boat for about a year and a half so I call that a success.
For those without an electric power system and ways to create and save power, I think you need an "abundant external power source" called diesel.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by danstanford

What if you looked at it with a less jaundiced eye? They will sail when they can, regenerating all the while, motor on battery when they have the capacity and now have a back-up for the extreme situations where they don't have enough power storage. Most of those scenarios save the environment and one is less than perfect. I have an auxiliary Honda generator that I have not needed to put on the boat for about a year and a half so I call that a success.
For those without an electric power system and ways to create and save power, I think you need an "abundant external power source" called diesel.

If we go back to the start of this thread, I have been trying to state that people see something on youtube and they believe what they see when reality is most often quite different. These videos are the modern day equivalent of glossy ads in magazines of all sorts hyping the miracle of whatever.


Their own words say they "bought a mobile marina". Why would you "buy a mobile marina" if you had everything you needed with your current setup?


I have no doubt at all that they can more than adequately generate enough power for the house loads using regen. My skepticism comes when they have to regen enough engergy to put back the power they need to motor anywhere.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Muaddib1116, notice the "at the same distance/time." You can take the energy out again at a high rate while having put it in at a slow rate, but you still get less than 100% efficiency. The pod has drag, the gears have friction, the battery does not function at 100% out of what you put in, and so forth.

Yeah, of course. What's your point?

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

If we go back to the start of this thread, I have been trying to state that people see something on youtube and they believe what they see when reality is most often quite different. These videos are the modern day equivalent of glossy ads in magazines of all sorts hyping the miracle of whatever.

Their own words say they "bought a mobile marina". Why would you "buy a mobile marina" if you had everything you needed with your current setup?

I have no doubt at all that they can more than adequately generate enough power for the house loads using regen. My skepticism comes when they have to regen enough engergy to put back the power they need to motor anywhere.

I think the problem people have had with your take on it is that you seem to be implying a sort of purposeful deception on the part of UMA, or other youtubers. While I can't speak to all sailing youtube channels, I've watched all of UMA's videos and do not feel that they've ever tried to deceive their viewers about their electric boat. They've been wrong in some of their assumptions when they first think of something or install it, but then later they report back on how it actually performs.

They've never pushed the message of this thread's central argument, that regen is all they need to motor as much as they want. In fact, Oceanvolt doesn't seem to push that.

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

My skepticism comes when they have to regen enough engergy to put back the power they need to motor anywhere.

I have yet to see anyone outside of this thread make this claim.

There is no hypocrisy in their latest act, of buying a generator. As they state in this video, and in many others, they were able to get by with just solar in the tropics for many years, with the way they've sailed, with the open ended timeframe they've had. Now that they are in Northern Europe, they've had to adjust their style to include more on-grid power. And now that they are going to Svalbard, which has a very short summer season and only one marina, they are on a clock with limited resources, and they once again have to adjust the way they operate. They have never claimed that they have everything they needed for all scenarios, only that it worked fine in the Caribbean.

Criticize viewers who misinterpret their videos or use them as gospel for a message that isn't there, but they aren't part of this manufactured online argument, and I think it's unfair to hint that they are.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Muaddib1116, notice the "at the same distance/time." You can take the energy out again at a high rate while having put it in at a slow rate, but you still get less than 100% efficiency. The pod has drag, the gears have friction, the battery does not function at 100% out of what you put in, and so forth.

What's your point, the diesel in your boat has and efficiency of 35-40%?
The "fuel" for EP is free.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

This is an interesting turn of events. After 11 pages of people debating this, is this an admission from the party in question that electric motors are not suitable for any kind of "remote" cruising without an abundant external power source?


I wonder if they are also collaborating with honda on this?

It is not such an admission.
It is evidence that EP is significantly more difficult in certain locations and seasons.
The middle of the Atlantic is pretty remote and they were there on Uma with just solar, no regen.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

I think the problem people have had with your take on it is that you seem to be implying a sort of purposeful deception on the part of UMA, or other youtubers. While I can't speak to all sailing youtube channels, I've watched all of UMA's videos and do not feel that they've ever tried to deceive their viewers about their electric boat. They've been wrong in some of their assumptions when they first think of something or install it, but then later they report back on how it actually performs.

Near as I can tell, these people have three (likely more) income streams providing them enough to live on. Believe it or not, they have a vested interest in keeping all those funds rolling in. I choose to not outright believe any statements that are made about a product when it is a paid endorsement unless all the data is provided.

It's perfectly okay for you and the rest of their fanbase to disagree with me.

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

Criticize viewers who misinterpret their videos or use them as gospel for a message that isn't there, but they aren't part of this manufactured online argument, and I think it's unfair to hint that they are.

They must have a rabid fanbase for one to actually direct message me because I dared criticize their idols when I questioned whether or not there was any exchange for goods / services with the manufacturer. They even went so far as to say they e-mailed them about me. When I pointed out that the manufacturer was clearly listed on their sponsors page they doubled down on their argument.

Until I'm told otherwise by the forum administrators, I will continue to feel free to express my opinions here.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Adelie

It is not such an admission.
It is evidence that EP is significantly more difficult in certain locations and seasons.
The middle of the Atlantic is pretty remote and they were there on Uma with just solar, no regen.

Like I said, using regen to provide for your house load is quite easy to believe. Sailing across an ocean where you have limited motor range is done all the time and has been for hundreds of years. But, once they start needing to motor for any distance for whatever reason without enough wind for a long period of time they would be in trouble.

[noelex 77]

The issue that needs to be mentioned is that, judging from many of their videos, their electric propulsion demands require frequent connection to shore power. There is nothing wrong with visiting marinas or docks with power, but this is not everyone's preference.

To cruise areas away from reliable shore power they have installed a petrol generator, once again there is nothing wrong with this solution, but it is not everyone's preference.

These limitations need to factored in when considering a similar system.

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by marcjsmith

As Montgomery Scott would say "I canna change the laws of physics jim"

And then did exactly that by engaging Warp Factor Two.

[danstanford]

NaClyDog and Noelex, nothing you have said is incorrect.

The dream of a sailing life free from needing to re-fuel (with whatever fuel source) is not realized just yet but I, for one, wish you could recognize how much closer we have come through this much enhanced regeneration system. We should be celebrating this solution and the window these people have given us rather than pointing out the obvious gaps from the dream, or at least give it equal time.

For those who feel it necessary to point out that you cannot regenerate enough power from sailing to then motor an equal distance, thanks but not needed. If an electric solution does not appeal to you, I completely understand and want you to understand that you don't need to validate or explain your conclusion here.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by danstanford

For those who feel it necessary to point out that you cannot regenerate enough power from sailing to then motor an equal distance, thanks but not needed. If an electric solution does not appeal to you, I completely understand and want you to understand that you don't need to validate or explain your conclusion here.

You misunderstand me. I would love nothing more than for this to be possible. If I could eliminate all my personal use of fossil fuels and replace that with fuels provided by mother nature, I would be first in line.


My problem is when entertainers present a dream world and people then regurgitate what they saw as facts.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

You misunderstand me. I would love nothing more than for this to be possible. If I could eliminate all my personal use of fossil fuels and replace that with fuels provided by mother nature, I would be first in line.


My problem is when entertainers present a dream world and people then regurgitate what they saw as facts.

I don't really see what the "dream world" was? Their reported results (the bar chart) listed worse figures than Oceanvolt's marketing material. Also, the figures were low enough to clearly indicate that, after subtracting the house consumption, there wasn't too much added for propulsion needs.

The current state of electrical propulsion seems to be roughly this:

a) with full batteries, you get a short range (in the tens of miles) of pure electric motoring
b) if you want/need a much longer motoring range, you need a hybrid system with a generator
c) regeneration is a good additional source of power, but it's not the holy grail of fossil free crusing.

I think it is quite likely (I won't dare say obvious) that the 2050s sailboats won't have Yanmar and Volvo diesel engines. So how do we get there, and what are the iterative solutions in between now and then?

(And what heaters will they have? That is an interesting question, as well. For now, Oceanvolt recommends using diesel for heating.)

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how this works.

The ocean volt system is a ripoff. They are being capitalists about it and any claim that they are making these for any other reason (such as environment) other than to maximize profits is false. Electric motors don't cost that much and oceanvolt systems are not efficient. They are like tesla for boat. Looks and acts with performance of combustion engine but at ridiculous price and overall poor efficiency compared to proven alternatives.

How much does "someone" get from regen from a beta engine?

It is not dumb, because yes, near hull speed you can capture energy via regen with minimal loss in boat speed. The same amount of energy captured from 0.1 knot loss in speed can then in calm conditions can push the boat a few knots.

Now, this oceanvolt setup has a few glaring issues:
1) price
2) turbine is way too small. It should be larger so it can generate a lot more power. The variable pitch would let you adjust the drag vs power. The propeller is also too small to be efficient in propulsion at any speed.
3) limited camber. It is impossible to have a propeller efficient at both propulsion and regeneration made out of bronze because you need both variable pitch and variable camber. The only way to maximize efficiency in both cases is to use a separate turbine for generation. They refuse to acknowledge this in the video and fail to explain it. So there is a compromise and the result is less power for the amount of drag.

Please help me. I know from wind turbines that they have systems to adjust the pitch (in older systems with spring loaded hydraulic cylinders, because it is safety relevant too. In newer systems they use electric drives with a battery backup). But I've never heard of camber-adjustment. How does it work? Can you describe the effect? Or even better you can post a scetch?
Or do I have to understand it as a compensation of the drag-angle? And if my assumption is correct - how big would that effect be in reality? Is it nearly not measurable or would it increase the efficiency by 10%? So at a regen-rate of 300W-500W it is roughly 30-50W? Would that justify the mechanical effort? Or isn't it easier to compensate it with a slight windward ruder angle (sacrificing maybe 0.01kt)?

Cheers
Dirk