Oceanvolt Servoprop regen tested by UMA

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

and such improvements will allow for EP to become more useful, possibly useful enough to replace diesel in some sailing applications.

Indeed and whilst diesel won't disappear after 2029 (when for example new petrol and diesel cars in the UK are no more) the price you have to pay for a gallon of diesel might be a real shock and lead to it being used frugally not frequently.

Could I get by with an electric car? sure no problem. Could I manage with an electric yacht, possibly and certainly if there was some form of ICE back up just in case for occasional use.

Will it happen in my lifetime, well things are moving quickly in Europe, so worth keeping an eye on developments.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Sean, I admire your advocacy and also your ability to challenge dogma.

I completely agree that no one absolutely needs an engine.

However, absolutism never really changes peoples opinions. Rather, a pragmatic approach usually leads to much greater change.
A far more high-yield group to attack is large power yachts which use exponentially more fuel than the auxiliary diesels in many of our sailboats.
My opinion is that diesel needs to be taxed or priced much higher and that will make everyone think harder about consumption, proportionate to their usage.

There are renewable fuels that work in diesel engines available already at higher prices. We can eliminate fossil fuel diesel completely from recreational activities, and you can keep your engine! In this scenario the price would also increase as demand is focused.

Currently it is too cheap to buy vegetable oil $7-$8 per gallon. This is low because it does not account for the cost of misusing the land and fossil fuels to produce it.

If you consider the cost to extract the emissions from the air and bury them again using renewable energy, the cost per gallon is about $30 or $8 per liter, and this is really a reasonable and fair price to offer everyone considering (as previous posters noted) the extremely high energy density. At only 80 liters (as suggested a typical cruiser consumes) per year this is a small fraction of total operating costs.

I also suggest not having fuel docks, because this makes it too easy. Additional barriers are like speed bumps to make it more difficult.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Will it happen in my lifetime, well things are moving quickly in Europe, so worth keeping an eye on developments.

Yes! We're apparently decarbonizing it all to "net neutral" by 2050

https://prod-drupal-files.storage.go...essels_v13.pdf

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Sean, I admire your advocacy and also your ability to challenge dogma.

I completely agree that no one absolutely needs an engine.

However, absolutism never really changes peoples opinions. Rather, a pragmatic approach usually leads to much greater change.
A far more high-yield group to attack is large power yachts which use exponentially more fuel than the auxiliary diesels in many of our sailboats.
My opinion is that diesel needs to be taxed or priced much higher and that will make everyone think harder about consumption, proportionate to their usage.

It is not just large power yachts.

Here are some real figures for a couple of cruising monohull "sail" boats advertised for sale.

Sundeer 64 - 1993 (2020)
140hp - tankage 1400 ltrs
4407 engine hours @ 6lph (average 1-2gals/hr) = (26442 ltrs) / 27 years 980 ltrs/year

Amel 54 -2010 (2021)
110hp - tankage 900 ltrs
2600 engine hours @ 5lph (13000 ltrs) / 11 years
1180 ltrs/year

Generators on even small second hand yachts can be found with 7000-10000 hours on them. This is certainly an area that can be met using re-newables, solar and wind. Perhaps a phasing out or banning of diesel gensets on boats and RV's would be a good idea. What about banning new diesels over 100hp, boats would adapt.

I agree that pricing will limit consumption but probably to only those that can least afford it.

What about rationing? It did wonders in Europe in the 1970's putting many gas guzzling vehicles out to pasture. Or even exponential pricing.

In the short or even medium term there is still a place for diesel but not in the quantities we currently burn and reducing this should be readily achievable. A more pragmatic thought out restrictive approach will always yield better results than a total ban.

Why are we still allowing private yachts to be built with fuel capacities exceeding 250,000 litres? Restricting this to even 10,000 litres will have an immediate and profound effect. It may even focus the money and alternative energy research towards a consumer that is more able to afford it and whose image depends on it.

All this has to be balanced against a political class that fully understands that most of the oil reserves are in countries that are not controlled by major powers in the world. China has only 1.5% of the worlds oil reserves hence their interest the South China Sea not as a holiday destination, it is because of the oil. The USA imports cheap oil from aboard to conserve its own less accessible reserves. Germany will soon be under the control of Russia. So there is most definitely political intent, little of which has anything to do with the well being of our planet.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

It is not just large power yachts.

Here are some real figures for a couple of cruising monohull "sail" boats advertised for sale.

Sundeer 64 - 1993 (2020)
140hp - tankage 1400 ltrs
4407 engine hours @ 6lph (average 1-2gals/hr) = (26442 ltrs) / 27 years 980 ltrs/year

Amel 54 -2010 (2021)
110hp - tankage 900 ltrs
2600 engine hours @ 5lph (13000 ltrs) / 11 years
1180 ltrs/year

Generators on even small second hand yachts can be found with 7000-10000 hours on them. This is certainly an area that can be met using re-newables, solar and wind. Perhaps a phasing out or banning of diesel gensets on boats and RV's would be a good idea. What about banning new diesels over 100hp, boats would adapt.

I agree that pricing will limit consumption but probably to only those that can least afford it.

What about rationing? It did wonders in Europe in the 1970's putting many gas guzzling vehicles out to pasture. Or even exponential pricing.

In the short or even medium term there is still a place for diesel but not in the quantities we currently burn and reducing this should be readily achievable. A more pragmatic thought out restrictive approach will always yield better results than a total ban.

Why are we still allowing private yachts to be built with fuel capacities exceeding 250,000 litres? Restricting this to even 10,000 litres will have an immediate and profound effect. It may even focus the money and alternative energy research towards a consumer that is more able to afford it and whose image depends on it.

All this has to be balanced against a political class that fully understands that most of the oil reserves are in countries that are not controlled by major powers in the world. China has only 1.5% of the worlds oil reserves hence their interest the South China Sea not as a holiday destination, it is because of the oil. The USA imports cheap oil from aboard to conserve its own less accessible reserves. Germany will soon be under the control of Russia. So there is most definitely political intent, little of which has anything to do with the well being of our planet.

I’m not sure about the Amel, but the Sundeer 64 was designed to run the engine for charging the batteries. Besides the oem 80A alternator, it came with two additional alternators of 225A each for a total of 530A charge current.

[StoneCrab]

In reading through the posts, it seems that there is a lot of doubt caused by UMA being given the OceanVolts for testing, and the possibility of their reporting being biased. They are one of the few if not the only small boat cruising on electrical only propulsion. If not them, then who?

I like UMA. They are young, smart and trying to live their lives their way. They both are trained architects which is basically engineering with art classes (no offense) It boggles my mind that they could graduate college and immediately jump on a boat to go exploring. It is a testament to their resourcefulness. Everything they do is carefully plotted out beforehand using good engineering practices. The results are tasteful and attractive.

What I understand is that their first OceanVolt was given to them by someone who removed it during a repower. They used that OV to replace their forklift drive system. They experienced problems with the used OV and discussed these problems with OceanVolt. This feedback went into modifications of their latest product line. Rewarding UMA with a new model for "continued testing" is smart on OceanVolt's part. UMA will put more hours on the system in real life usage than any other testing agency could.

The new system is a better system. It may not be perfect yet, but with UMA's feedback, I'm sure more improvements are to come.

The regen fits well into their overall energy recovery system. It adds energy to their bank without the need for a separate system to mount and maintain. Seems like a step in the right direction.

They are sailing to the ends of the earth - to be dramatic - a small gasoline generator was added in thier latest post. They are smart about weighing thier options and the enviroment that they are dealing with. Call me a fan.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

In past long discussions about whether there is speed robbing drag caused by the Oceanvolt regen system, what has been missing is visual confirmation, one way or the other, with a working system.

It got quite tedious trying to explain why the resultant drag is very minimal ( perhaps tenths of a knot), as members kept up the old "physics is physics" justification for their opinions on some technology they had no first hand experience with.

So, although it seems to have taken a very,very long time for a user to film the Oceanvolt regen system in operation, finally Dan of Sailing UMA YT channel has tested his new SD15 Servoprop regen systen and recorded the result, and whadayouknow? there is no appreciable drag that slows a boat down. Of course it DOES slow a boat down ( because yes, physics is physics), but as several of us have maintained from the beginning, NOT to any significant degree. Here it is at about the 25:35 point in the TY video below if you want to skip ahead:

As with anything everything is relative. A few 10ths on a race boat is huge. All things being equal a 10th results in about 2.4 miles a day in distance. Over 10 days its less than 24 miles. Not much when you're cruising.

I think the big take away is how much regeneration their actually is relative to amount of energy used. Dan I’m sure will give us his first hand experience in the next few episodes. The prospect of going untethered to land for long periods of time is enticing for sure. All you need to worry about is food.

[Painless]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

No problem with it being low drag. The problem is that the energy used (drag) has to be more than the energy stored by the battery. In other words, the drag during generation will be more than the propulsion available as a result. It slows the boat by a fraction of a knot? It will propell the boat at a smaller fraction of a knot for the same distance/time. Any other outcome would be a perpetual motion machine.

In the next episode, they purchased a Honda generator as a backup because they are planning to sail to the Svalbard islands with very slight solar available.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

….. They are one of the few if not the only small boat cruising on electrical only propulsion. If not them, then who?



I like UMA. They are young, smart and trying to live their lives their way. They both are trained architects which is basically engineering with art classes (no offense) …..

Sailing Wisdom/Rigging Doctor is also cruising trans-Atlantic on EP using an ElectricYacht system.
There are some others such as Beau&Brandy (?) and another couple Uma interviewed but I’m not sure how far afield those boats are roaming.

As an engineer offense taken anyway.
Architects are artists with anywhere from a smattering to a moderate amount of engineering thrown in depending on the particular program
They graduated from. Also some practical carpentry again depending on the particular program. Kiki & Dan seem to have decent carpentry skills.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by EngineerRetired

Truth is, as much as I hate saying it the youtubers all have financial involvements with the vendors they talk about on their channels. I would hardly expect one of them to say, "we tried it and it sucked" when they are getting the system free or nearly free.

Thoughtful comment. Perfectly mirrors a thread a few weeks back where people were bemoaning boat reviews in magazines all being positive. Same fundamental issue. One reason why one of the very, very few sources of objective consumer data is Consumer Reports - they have scrubbed nearly all* of that bias out of the system.


*That being said, even Consumer Reports is occasionally biased and gives unreliable advice at times. They advertise their own car buying service for example - which they make money from. Also, it is not commercial bias, but they totally flubbed that report a few years back on Alar. So, some sources are much more trustworthy than others, but because they are ultimately all human enterprises, the creature is what the creature is.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I’m not sure about the Amel, but the Sundeer 64 was designed to run the engine for charging the batteries. Besides the oem 80A alternator, it came with two additional alternators of 225A each for a total of 530A charge current.

Has anyone done calculations to determine the amount of fuel one has to burn to put an amp-hour into a battery using an auxiliary and an alternator? It would get very complicated very fast, but I would think that hauling that extra fuel has to slow a boat as well. But maybe that is measurable and trivial as well? It would also depend a lot on whether one was running the aux to just charge the batteries or charging the batteries when motoring.

[Colmmcginn]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

I don't mean to rain on your parade but just because someone says something in a video posted online, does not make it true.


I'm not disagreeing that the drag may have a negligible impact on performance, I'm simply stating this is not any kind of proof (I have not watched) unless all the inputs have been controlled and the results can be reproduced. Is this a person's experience or are they showing actual proof?

I have watched that video, and as I recall, generation was in range 200 W to 600 W, and I would say that's the appropriate amount of collection of energy, i.e., 'not very much', but useful in the context of charging batteries over several hours. Considering to push a 10 ton boat along at 6 or 7 knots takes 25 - 30 kW, it's a nearly minuscule amount of drag

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Painless

In the next episode, they purchased a Honda generator as a backup because they are planning to sail to the Svalbard islands with very slight solar available.

Svalbard has good solar insolation during summer (the only season where sailing is recommended).

I think the problem for Uma when planning to cruise Svalbard is the very limited opportunity to plug into shore power, hence the purchase of a petrol generator.

[OliveJuice]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

What I understand is that their first OceanVolt was given to them by someone who removed it during a repower. They used that OV to replace their forklift drive system. They experienced problems with the used OV and discussed these problems with OceanVolt.

Their first OV saildrive was struck by lightning while with the previous owner hence the problems, also why it was given for free.

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I like UMA. They are young, smart and trying to live their lives their way. They both are trained architects which is basically engineering with art classes (no offense).

While I agree with your sentiment that having a bunch of forum posters cast doubt on anything environmentally friendly on this forum is sad and annoying, insulting a profession isn't the way to go. I'm not an engineer but that's a good way to insult engineers in general and to some, it equates to a personal attack.

Focus on their achievements and how far they got with an electric engine. Doubters are gonna be doubters and there isn't much anyone can do about it.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Pete7

And the price to you or I? about 40,000 $ or Euro.

Guess its back to the alternator on the propshaft then

Yep, that's the cost of adding the regen Ocean Volt system to their electric motors, which I could almost stomach if the system worked as advertised. For that price one could line the whole stern of their boat with the Watt and Sea units that apparently do what they promise. Jimmy Cornell tried this system and found it was not generating the advertised power. Ocean Volt's response was that the system was not designed for more than two people on board (my mind exploded) If you're going a certain speed, it shouldn't matter what you have onboard be it crew or elephants. If you get that boat up to 10 knots the regen should produce the promised wattage - unfortunately it doesn't.