Oceanvolt Servoprop regen tested by UMA

[Bullshooter]

I'm confused by Paul B.'s comments, because he takes issue with BigB when both seem to admire the acheivements of Sailing Uma. What am I missing?

[JustMurph]

Your not the one missing something Bullshooter. Paul B seems to be way off the mark, or should have been aiming his comments at others.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by PaulBartomioli

To put it mildly, the owners of Sailing Uma have more cred than your comment. You get points for admitting your ignorance and YouTube bias, however well-deserved it may be. IF anyone has ANY questions about using solar on a sailboat, they were sailing NORTH of the Arctic Circle with a 100% solar-powered rig. They do have a small Honda Generator to provide battery charging due to the lack of sunlight. Bottom line, if Dan says it is true, it is true.

Paul,

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Who is the OP on this thread, anyway?

While I'm quite happy to admit ignorance when appropriate (I have ALOT of practice at that, as I try and build a 50' cat), I have to challenge you about my ignorance on both EP and of UMA's journey down the path of EP. I have been deeply involved for quite some time, am an Oceanvolt owner and have installed our own AXC 20 system, and also am a huge fan of UMA, from their beginning!

I think you're confused, can you explain yourself?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Paul,

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Who is the OP on this thread, anyway?

…

That’s a rhetorical question, right?

[BigBeakie]

Ahhh, yep. I was hoping he may have noticed who started the UMA thread and realised I was not denigrating UMA, but quite the opposite.

Maybe it was too subtle, huh?

[Adelie]

It's not beyond possibility that you forgot you started this thread, it was 2mo and 24pg ago.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Adelie

It's not beyond possibility that you forgot you started this thread, it was 2mo and 24pg ago.

You are not wrong. I can surprise even myself with what I've forgotten....

But, not in this case.

[Adelie]

I was not intending to cast shade with that remark, far from it, the amount of stuff I regularly forget is astounding.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I was not intending to cast shade with that remark, far from it, the amount of stuff I regularly forget is astounding.

No, I know that. No misunderstanding. The number of times I go to the grocery store to get 5 items, and the wife says, "So where are the oranges?"

[Mogle]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

Something isn't adding up... the OV site states the following;





How is roughly $40K 20-25% more than the cost of a traditional system??? How on earth do you get a ROI in 2-3 years?


More marketing hype it seems...

Valid point.

BUT - not everything comes down to DOLLAR and CENTS.

An EL engine onboard a sailing vessel changes the way you sail. Motor sailing becomes more fun ( as long as you have energy in your batteries ). No diesel smell onboard - not through since most people keep a generator.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Mogle

Valid point.

BUT - not everything comes down to DOLLAR and CENTS.

An EL engine onboard a sailing vessel changes the way you sail. Motor sailing becomes more fun ( as long as you have energy in your batteries ). No diesel smell onboard - not through since most people keep a generator.

Nothing adding up, an EL engine is good for coastal sailing where i do day or weekend trips from or to my home habour, thats it.

The countless fails of professional attempt in bluewater cruisers are long:
Jimmy cornell with Antares=>gave up and handed cat back
Alibi 52 and 55=>high performance cat, both ripped out the emotor after 1 and other 14 month and replaced by diesel
lagoon 44 with e, think was hybrid 95% of owner thrown out the hybrid and back to diesel
H44 by wynns, hybrid and the real world regen numbers are far below what was promised
Rapido 60 from La Vagabond seperate e and diesel engine, diesel not working and sailing fast between islands with solar and regen they cannot or hardly make it through the day...and thats a performance monster in speed...

What makes sense is a hybrid where you having a small e motor thats enough to get in/out habour or anchor bay and to put up a sail or support through a tack. Means low power and short duration. That combined with a smaller house+propulsion bank, that serves both and eg is limited to draw to 40% SOC on propulsion. That way the bank is smaller and doesn't weight much and also costs are much lower.
But when motoring or motorsail the emotor is a big alternator and charges up the bank.
This short distances where the diesel hardly get warm and harm the engine makes sense to take over by emotor. But motorsailing or motoring longer distance just doesn't make sense at all with emotor and heavy batteries for a bluewater cruiser. And a diesel engine is also big security factor eg if you eg in a lee shore storm and have to motor against it....not gonna happen with an emotor.

[Mogle]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Nothing adding up, an EL engine is good for coastal sailing where i do day or weekend trips from or to my home habour, thats it.

The countless fails of professional attempt in bluewater cruisers are long:

Very valid points. At one point we need to replace our trusted Volvo. Been thinking of Oceanvolts as an alternative. We do sail long distances, are often onboard the vessel for a relatively long time, been out in bad weather more often than I like. We prefer to spend the night at anchor if we are not crossing a big pond!

The countless stories of experienced yachtsmen who have tried and moved away from hydroelectric make an impression. I hope that our trusted Volvo keeps working for a few more years - until I am forced to make a decision. At that point I hope the technology has improved.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Mogle

Very valid points. At one point we need to replace our trusted Volvo. Been thinking of Oceanvolts as an alternative. We do sail long distances, are often onboard the vessel for a relatively long time, been out in bad weather more often than I like. We prefer to spend the night at anchor if we are not crossing a big pond!

The countless stories of experienced yachtsmen who have tried and moved away from hydroelectric make an impression. I hope that our trusted Volvo keeps working for a few more years - until I am forced to make a decision. At that point I hope the technology has improved.

You are ideally suited to trying out EP virtually. The boat is going to stay the same so just keep a very accurate "engine" only log. Note down the times you use the engine, what speed, motor sailing, duration, time it would take to recharge each time etc etc it will soon become apparent if EP is viable for you.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Mogle

Very valid points. At one point we need to replace our trusted Volvo. Been thinking of Oceanvolts as an alternative. We do sail long distances, are often onboard the vessel for a relatively long time, been out in bad weather more often than I like. We prefer to spend the night at anchor if we are not crossing a big pond!

The countless stories of experienced yachtsmen who have tried and moved away from hydroelectric make an impression. I hope that our trusted Volvo keeps working for a few more years - until I am forced to make a decision. At that point I hope the technology has improved.

It can never work as it will be a perpedomobile....regen will always be much less then you use. You need a huge and light cat with a big roof surface to fit enough solar and still then you have the one week of bad weather....
Technology here won't improve unless there is an light, safe and high density battery which are all conflicting targets and if that been overcome it needs min 10 years till thats in the mass use...lithium needed 20years...

What i hope improves is hybrid, having mass proced beta 30 hybrid from other manufacturers and proven retrofit kits as this could get them into an affordable price range.
Instead a heavy duty alternator have a 5kw motor attached that also works as alternator in reverse. That has the most potential regarding costs and usability....

Especially for monos where you simply have not enough space for a lot of solar the hybrid approach is the only that makes sense and will work. Have a look here:https://combi-outboards.com/en/products/hybrid
Use a smaller motor instead of a heavy duty alternator. And to get significant regen you need to be fast, means waterlength which means weight which means bigger engine/motor.


On cats you are either very small and light like a 35ft eg FP Tobago but here your limited payload doesn't allow a big bank but you need only 5kw motor, if used for daysailing or weektrips that will work.
Other way performance cat very light in 45-50ft range where you still can use the 3 cylinder 30hp engines in hybrid version to be light. Again even that is too heavy for pure eMotor as you need 2x15kw which needs a huge bank (very expensive and heavy) to get range and huge solar array on the roof. That is the only combo that gets close to full electric but still full electric won't be sufficent for bluewater cruising. You see that on the rapido 60, the antares from Jimmy cornell or the 2.5mio alibi 52/55, fully electric doesn't work on cats doing 240-300nm etamals and here regen is significant.

On a cat you could go 1 engine diesel and one emotor but again costs are triple of just 2x30hp betas. Know a FP46 Bahia (light ship only 9.5t for 46ft) that done that a costs where 80k. And prices won't go down as basically each build is a one off, no big numbers and light ship means expensive, again small numbers.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Nothing adding up, an EL engine is good for coastal sailing where i do day or weekend trips from or to my home habour, thats it.

The countless fails of professional attempt in bluewater cruisers are long:
Jimmy cornell with Antares=>gave up and handed cat back
Alibi 52 and 55=>high performance cat, both ripped out the emotor after 1 and other 14 month and replaced by diesel
lagoon 44 with e, think was hybrid 95% of owner thrown out the hybrid and back to diesel
H44 by wynns, hybrid and the real world regen numbers are far below what was promised
Rapido 60 from La Vagabond seperate e and diesel engine, diesel not working and sailing fast between islands with solar and regen they cannot or hardly make it through the day...and thats a performance monster in speed...

What makes sense is a hybrid where you having a small e motor thats enough to get in/out habour or anchor bay and to put up a sail or support through a tack. Means low power and short duration. That combined with a smaller house+propulsion bank, that serves both and eg is limited to draw to 40% SOC on propulsion. That way the bank is smaller and doesn't weight much and also costs are much lower.
But when motoring or motorsail the emotor is a big alternator and charges up the bank.
This short distances where the diesel hardly get warm and harm the engine makes sense to take over by emotor. But motorsailing or motoring longer distance just doesn't make sense at all with emotor and heavy batteries for a bluewater cruiser. And a diesel engine is also big security factor eg if you eg in a lee shore storm and have to motor against it....not gonna happen with an emotor.

I see it the other way. EP (Electric Propulsion) is not particularly good for day or weekend trips but much better suited to long offshore passages. For day and weekend trips one usually has a deadline to be home for work or family. If you are going offshore you shouldn't have a schedule so sitting and waiting for wind or sun shouldn't be that big an issue.

Jimmy Cornell's problem wasn't with the EP, it was with the regen. It's not clear if it didn't work as advertised or he didn't have his consumption under control or some of both. I suspect it was mostly lack of control of consumption coupled with regen underperforming somewhat. Whatever, he didn't take as much solar as he should have.
I have no info on what happened with the others. Lack of solar, failing to control consumption, inappropriate use expectations.

Certainly there are examples of boats such at Uma, Wisdom and Saoirse that have done significant passages and coastal sailing using just EP. I believe they have all installed significant solar capacity, have kept control of their house consumption and managed their expectations of what EP could provide them.

Living with EP successfully requires accepting the tradeoffs. If you don't want to accept them, don't but don't try to argue that it doesn't work because it wouldn't work for you.