Oceanvolt Servoprop regen tested by UMA

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^

When discussing the amount of engine usage whilst cruising, one must consider location. Cruising in trade wind areas is kinda different in that calms/very light air periods are much rarer than in some other locales, and this influences engine usage.

Jim

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

A passage that went to plan. But, my question was how long have you owned your boat and how many engines hours have you logged?

I own the boat 22 years and have logged about 1,000 hrs so that is 45 hours per year.

Edit: but the passage didn’t go according to plan… did you read we went backwards due to current and no wind?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^^^

When discussing the amount of engine usage whilst cruising, one must consider location. Cruising in trade wind areas is kinda different in that calms/very light air periods are much rarer than in some other locales, and this influences engine usage.

Jim

Yes, it also relates to the distances between anchorages not just the weather. Islands that are only a short distance apart involve more engine hours than more widely spaced islands. Engine hours in the Pacific for example were almost non existent (open anchorages) compared to engine hours in southern UK were ports are close together nearly all in rivers or marinas. Long sailing distances with anchoring often under sail instead of having to navigate in crowed waters into a harbour or marina. On a cat my engine hours massively increase under these conditions because I am forced to use both engines instead of one.



From Jedi's numbers it can be seen that at only 45 hours per year the justification for electric propulsion is just not there based on installation cost alone.

[Rorke Miller]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

The only set up that really makes sense in my mind, is an asymmetric parallel hybrid. Put a slightly larger, parallel hybrid diesel in one hull and an electric in the other..

I agree with Murph that this would be best.

In 2021, I had commissioned a builder for a 46’ performance catamaran. He was inclined to install OceanVolt motors, but the decision was mine. While I was impressed with 1 - OceanVolt’s potential, and 2 - customer service, I stated that OV was not there yet. At the time, I asked, “have you heard of the legendary, master sailor Jimmy Cornell?”

I eventually specified a fairly expensive system. A Yanmar with Integrel in the port hull. OceanVolt in starboard. All operate on 48v.
According to the builder, OV was not into helping design or promote the system. Understandable. If it worked, only half the motors would get sold into the cat market.

Based on my sailing experience, I am not interested in passagemaking without the energy capacity of a full tank of diesel fuel. I have been in too many situations that require many hours of max propulsion. OV can only pull this off with two generators; one generator sustains only 4 hours before speed is limited.

There were concerns about maneuvering in close quarters, which would just require a little practice. JustMurph’s idea actually eliminates the issue, nice.

I was beyond upset when the builder ordered OceanVolts without my authorization. He used my money to buy motors that I didn’t want.

This led to a saga unrelated to this thread. However, it is disappointing that OceanVolt (who knows my situation from face to face meetings in Amsterdam, Düsseldorf, Miami, Tampa) has not only recently promoted this brand, but I was told they may have sold two more motors for Hull #2 (also bought with my money).
In fairness, I don’t know the narrative OV has been told. I have tried to tell them the motors were purchased with embezzled funds.
I reached out to OV USA last week to see if two more motors were sold. I also wanted to tell them that the court issued a favorable report in the court, but I am stuck in a quagmire of due process. The USA OV president completely shut me down in a rather rude email.

So, in conclusion, I used to want to further research the OceanVolt product. I would have taken the plunge on the hybrid concept. While I never ruled out a full system, more research was necessary.

Sometimes I fear that by the time I get my own boat, hydrogen will already be getting replaced by Doc Brown’s garbage disposal system from Back to the Future.

[JustMurph]

BigBeakie is installing such an asym hybrid in his cat, so hopefully we'll get it see the concept proved soon.

[Matt Johnson]

Max Cruise has two boats launched with a parallel hybrid in port hull and electric in the starboard - it's the way we are going with our boat too. In flat water, with the Beta 35 running at 1200 rpm, and both powering the propeller plus generating 5kw - sending the 5kw over to the electric motor in the starboard hull for propulsion - the boat will do 6knts without drawing from the battery bank. Bumping it to 1400 rpm, the boat does 7knts.

The hybrid levels off at 5kw of generation, so if we use the full power on the electric starboard motor at 10kw, we're using 5kw an hour from the battery bank.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

We’re talking sailboats, right? The kind of boat you hoist sails and the wind moves the boat? They have auxiliary engines, for which electric is fine.

If you want to motor, buy a motorboat.

Wrong...lee shore strom, motorsailing hard on wind to keep course/VMG and add that 1-2kn so sails stay filled and not smashing (especially on cats with no daggerboards) or eg getting to the next wind zone if you do a atlantic crossing before you get hit by the next no wind zone or many other examples where you simply need your auxiliary engine or it makes absolute sense eg i get 1.5kn additonal at 1300RPM motorsailing for 0.7-1l of diesel per hour...a nobrainer to do when close haul

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

Max Cruise has two boats launched with a parallel hybrid in port hull and electric in the starboard - it's the way we are going with our boat too. In flat water, with the Beta 35 running at 1200 rpm, and both powering the propeller plus generating 5kw - sending the 5kw over to the electric motor in the starboard hull for propulsion - the boat will do 6knts without drawing from the battery bank. Bumping it to 1400 rpm, the boat does 7knts.

The hybrid levels off at 5kw of generation, so if we use the full power on the electric starboard motor at 10kw, we're using 5kw an hour from the battery bank.

Thats exact the setup that works and makes sense IF you have a light performance cat with 44-48ft waterline. Problem are the additonal costs for hybrid+electric motor+batteries will never pay off in the first 20years with the prices we have today due to low volume when 2x30hp diesel+saildrive are 25k installed.
I would take 2x beta 35 instead 1x full electric due to redudancy and keep battery bank small just for short propulsion in out habour/anchor spot on epropulsion resulting in similar costs and keep weight low. You can do the same running one electric and one on diesel with 2 beta 35. Ok you can do that too with one beta 35 too and save money.
What are the actual costs for that setup with what size of LFP bank. What cat do you get?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Thats exact the setup that works and makes sense IF you have a light performance cat with 44-48ft waterline. Problem are the additonal costs for hybrid+electric motor+batteries will never pay off in the first 20years with the prices we have today due to low volume when 2x30hp diesel+saildrive are 25k installed

I don't think many people going with this system are doing it with cost justifications. Typically, it's technology or green driven types that go with this.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

I don't think many people going with this system are doing it with cost justifications. Typically, it's technology or green driven types that go with this.

If i spend 1 Mio Euro on a 48ft performance, adding 50k for one hybrid and one emotor and have less maintenance plus the possibiliy with a huge solar array on the roof to motor on e from solar i would do it plus that saves weight.
Eg 1 Beta35 and one 10kw emotor with a 20kw hybrid propulsion+service bank made from 304AH EVE cells with multiple 200A JK smart inverter BMS should be possible for below 40k invest, makes 15k more then 2x30hp diesels. Even i would go for it with a vessel that fits that engine size.
That could pay off in 5-10years.
Problem here it needs to be a shaft drive cat and they are very seldom, beta 35 with saildrive doesn't work.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

I don't think many people going with this system are doing it with cost justifications. Typically, it's technology or green driven types that go with this.

Agreed. You definitely aren't doing this for cost. Many will do it with green motivations, however are misguided at best (in my opinion). For me, the motivation is comfort, convenience and flexibility. It enables you to run a power intensive, primarily electric boat, with the absolute minimum of diesel engine runtime required. However, when you do need it, you have tge power and run time of the diesel.

On an easily driven cat like mine, equiped with a decent sized solar array, I would expect the diesel will get very little use.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

Max Cruise has two boats launched with a parallel hybrid in port hull and electric in the starboard - it's the way we are going with our boat too. In flat water, with the Beta 35 running at 1200 rpm, and both powering the propeller plus generating 5kw - sending the 5kw over to the electric motor in the starboard hull for propulsion - the boat will do 6knts without drawing from the battery bank. Bumping it to 1400 rpm, the boat does 7knts.

The hybrid levels off at 5kw of generation, so if we use the full power on the electric starboard motor at 10kw, we're using 5kw an hour from the battery bank.

That's awesome! I'm looking forward to seeing your set up in action!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

That's awesome! I'm looking forward to seeing your set up in action!

Fully agree and as i wrote that setup could be also economical if done right. Hard to find prices but i assume beta 35 is 20k with controller, the 10kw about 8k with controller and around 30kw with 2x1p16s with 304EVE and 2x Jk 200A inverter smart BMS is below 5k for propulsion and service makes 35k hardware. 2 diesels with saildrives are 20k hardware and you have no house battery.
So you are maybe in the 10k range price difference, that will amortisate over 5-10years.
That concept could even work on the older lighter 40ft cats like mine FP Lavezzi, who has 2x20hpfrom factory...well not mine i have new 2x50hp and WOT is 15kn :-) motor and sailing cat in one :-) done by former owner and bought with 19h.

[P-Dub]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

- it's the way we are going with our boat too.

Don't do it, Matt!

Unfortunately, that setup is fine if you only ever plan on sailing in areas where you always have flat water, no storms, abundant wind, have copious amounts of sun, and you never have issues with your solar, your diesel, or one of the e-drives.

You will need two parallel hybrids to make your boat go anywhere in a sea state with some real snot to battle. I just took my Max 5437 nautical miles and the 35HP's were barely enough in some real crud we got into two days north of Manus Island, PNG. If we had anything less we could very well have been in some trouble.

The numbers sound good on paper but reality is an entirely different animal. Further, the hybrid tech Max offers seems nice but is not ready for prime time. It's fine on a canal boat, but until they marinize the system for ocean-going vessels I would steer clear. There were multiple failures with the e-drives and I'm still battling issues. The hybrid marine regen has proven to be functionally useless in the real world, as well.

Just some practical Max life experience, if you like. Don't feel bad about pushing this tech though. MaxCruise filled me a tall glass of the Kool-Aid also, and I drank it. Two parallel hybrids or one parallel and one diesel along with a 3kw small portable generator is what you are going to need. You are then covered for the inevitable eventualities that do come up, as I'm sure you know, on the water.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by tp12

Performance multis are OBVIOUSLY the way forward

Posted by P-Dub

"Unfortunately, that setup is fine if you only ever plan on sailing in areas where you always have flat water, no storms, abundant wind, have copious amounts of sun, and you never have issues with your solar, your diesel, or one of the e-drives.

You will need two parallel hybrids to make your boat go anywhere in a sea state with some real snot to battle. I just took my Max 5437 nautical miles and the 35HP's were barely enough in some real crud we got into two days north of Manus Island, PNG. If we had anything less we could very well have been in some trouble.

The numbers sound good on paper but reality is an entirely different animal. Further, the hybrid tech Max offers seems nice but is not ready for prime time. It's fine on a canal boat, but until they marinize the system for ocean-going vessels I would steer clear. There were multiple failures with the e-drives and I'm still battling issues. The hybrid marine regen has proven to be functionally useless in the real world, as well.

Just some practical Max life experience, if you like. Don't feel bad about pushing this tech though. MaxCruise filled me a tall glass of the Kool-Aid also, and I drank it. Two parallel hybrids or one parallel and one diesel along with a 3kw small portable generator is what you are going to need. You are then covered for the inevitable eventualities that do come up, as I'm sure you know, on the water."



There appears to be a serious disconnect between anticipation and reality. P-Dub's reality says that a performance catamaran has to have at least 70 diesel hp running in order to claw off a lee shore in heavy weather. Further, his reality says that his electric motors are not reliable and maintenance free.

As a performance mono sailor like Jedi, the need to motor in heavy weather never crossed my mind. My motor hours were always put on when there was not enough wind, and I was using less than 40% of the available hp. The exceptions were when I was being chased by pirates or when I had to motor against the wind and heavy current to get though narrow passes into atolls.

Today I went back to Sailing Uma to see if they were still happy with their Ocean Volt system, and I found they have gone off the deep end and are trying to completely rebuild a really worthless old boat.

Then I looked at the Wynns latest videos, where they are sailing their new multimillion dollar hybrid performance cat. They are getting some regen at times, but I hear the poorly insulated sound of diesels in a lot of the videos, and they are motoring at 5 knots max. That boat is a complete power hog, though, and may not be a good test bed for regen.

Is there anyone who full time cruising and is happy with electric propulsion based on regen, or are there just more Jimmy Cornells.