Ok, What about Bali 4.5?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

but also journalists who have reviewed it with an objective point of view.

ROTDLMAO !

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by StuM

ROTDLMAO !

Heavy criticism is usually a sign of it, at least they're not biased for what they review if that's what you mean. (pretty stereotypical pessipistic point of view there)

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

I get what you mean, seems pretty crazy to think the lift could have a meaningful impact but saying there is no lift at all is just wrong. Of course, it's objective would be to fight agaist the weight (even though with the venturi effect under the boat it might even do the opposite), but i believe the solid foredeck might not have a negative impact on the aerodynamics of the boat.

We've come a long way from the solid foredeck creating lift and an aerodynamic advantage to "might not have a negative impact on aerodynamics". I agree that it shouldn't have a negative impact on aerodynamics, it's oriented flat against any wind it might encounter and it's sheltered from the wind by the hulls. But before it could have any positive effect it would need to generate enough lift to overcome it's weight. I just don't think that's possible.

I think it's a great feature for a "party-barge" and it makes the Bali very distinct. If I was doing a cost-conscience party charter in relatively protected waters and wanted to maximize usable space/cram as many people onto a 45ft boat as possible, I would seriously consider the Bali.

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

In fact, pitchpoling often occurs when bows dig in but it usually hapens on small cats where the forces which push the boat downwind are so high above water that the boat just wants to flip. Again on a 45 feet cat the hulls have a lot more inertia so even with the high drag underwater i don't see it pitchpoling (even with the paropriate waves, which would have to be very short and high to put the bows underwater). As for the bridgedeck, i imagine the force required to sink such a large portion of deck (which would act as a very large hull) before it actually goes fully underwater makes it pretty silly to think it will dig in like a shovel. Because of course you have to consider the boat can't be at an angle of more than 45° before digging in so in a such configuration a large area f the deck would have to be submerged to pitchpole, as the front of the deck can't reach water before that large area.
Again that's what I thought from what I've read, to try and have a somewhat different point of view from totally condemning the idea, and I apreciate your clever and polite post.

I don't think the Bali could carry nearly enough sail to pitchpole like a hobie. I was more thinking surfing down a wave too fast and burying the bows. The sails pushing the bows down would be nearly impossible with a flat foredeck, I'll give you that, because the sails would essentially be pushing the bow straight down. But if she was surfing down a wave too fast and buried the bows the flat foredeck would hit the water edge-on and it would be very easy for it to be submerged that way. The guy who delivered one mentioned that in a gale they had issues with the foredeck seating area collecting water, add that extra weight of water, the weight of the foredeck itself, and I think it could happen.

[SVNeko]

Dude, you have no clue and just won't admit it. Fine, have it your way.

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

We've come a long way from the solid foredeck creating lift and an aerodynamic advantage to "might not have a negative impact on aerodynamics". I agree that it shouldn't have a negative impact on aerodynamics, it's oriented flat against any wind it might encounter and it's sheltered from the wind by the hulls. But before it could have any positive effect it would need to generate enough lift to overcome it's weight. I just don't think that's possible.



I think it's a great feature for a "party-barge" and it makes the Bali very distinct. If I was doing a cost-conscience party charter in relatively protected waters and wanted to maximize usable space/cram as many people onto a 45ft boat as possible, I would seriously consider the Bali.







I don't think the Bali could carry nearly enough sail to pitchpole like a hobie. I was more thinking surfing down a wave too fast and burying the bows. The sails pushing the bows down would be nearly impossible with a flat foredeck, I'll give you that, because the sails would essentially be pushing the bow straight down. But if she was surfing down a wave too fast and buried the bows the flat foredeck would hit the water edge-on and it would be very easy for it to be submerged that way. The guy who delivered one mentioned that in a gale they had issues with the foredeck seating area collecting water, add that extra weight of water, the weight of the foredeck itself, and I think it could happen.

I admit mentioning the aerodynamic lift was more to taunt those other members saying it would only be bad, but honestly I think pretty much like you over that, and considering that partying at anchor is what cruising cats like to do, it seems like a logical attempt.

I get what kind of situation you mention but I wondered if we can have waves high and short enough to achieve that, without letting the boat slide on it's bridge deck (not talking about rogue waves ofc), like genuinely asking to more experienced sailors. Also maybe they need to improve drains because as the other guy said hitting waves fill the forward cockpit so water in there is nothing good indeed, don't know how different it is from a leopard type of forward cockpit. And sadly leaking hatches seem to be pretty frequent on standard cruiser cats (heard some Helia 44 owners complaining from it too)

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

I admit mentioning the aerodynamic lift was more to taunt those other members saying it would only be bad, but honestly I think pretty much like you over that, and considering that partying at anchor is what cruising cats like to do, it seems like a logical attempt.

I get what kind of situation you mention but I wondered if we can have waves high and short enough to achieve that, without letting the boat slide on it's bridge deck (not talking about rogue waves ofc), like genuinely asking to more experienced sailors. Also maybe they need to improve drains because as the other guy said hitting waves fill the forward cockpit so water in there is nothing good indeed, don't know how different it is from a leopard type of forward cockpit. And sadly leaking hatches seem to be pretty frequent on standard cruiser cats (heard some Helia 44 owners complaining from it too)

I think if wave action alone is filling the forward seating area then there's a chance it could bury the bows in a wave. Whether there's enough momentum behind it to actually pitchpole is a whole different story. But even if it didn't pitchpole, I think that would be a very bad day on a Bali.

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

I think if wave action alone is filling the forward seating area then there's a chance it could bury the bows in a wave. Whether there's enough momentum behind it to actually pitchpole is a whole different story. But even if it didn't pitchpole, I think that would be a very bad day on a Bali.

Those sudden brake are indeed unpleasant, but a wave hitting the outer side of a hull (inner side protected by solid bridge deck) thus spilling the deck with water is not the same as both hulls getting underwater deep enough so that hydrodynamic forces over their top pushes them down (with a sufficient mass of water over them to "hold" and apply this force) otherwise the helm will just get out of water like you see supertankers in storms doing because that's the thing: if the hull will go forward (forgetting all the mast tipping effects) and starts to go underwater, then there needs to be that huge hydrodynamic "lift" but downward, to fight the buoyancy, added with the weight of the water on top of the hulls, and it needs to go in that vicious circle of sinking until complete stop down of the boat where weight of water is now alone against buoyancy thus looses and boat comes back afloat. Pretty interesting study to be made there ;-)

[CbroTheDude]

Actually forget the "weight of water", that's BS nonsense as buoyancy is grad(pressure forces) so every weight interaction already taken into account, I wrote this while extremely tired

[Factor]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

Those sudden brake are indeed unpleasant, but a wave hitting the outer side of a hull (inner side protected by solid bridge deck) thus spilling the deck with water is not the same as both hulls getting underwater deep enough so that hydrodynamic forces over their top pushes them down (with a sufficient mass of water over them to "hold" and apply this force) otherwise the helm will just get out of water like you see supertankers in storms doing because that's the thing: if the hull will go forward (forgetting all the mast tipping effects) and starts to go underwater, then there needs to be that huge hydrodynamic "lift" but downward, to fight the buoyancy, added with the weight of the water on top of the hulls, and it needs to go in that vicious circle of sinking until complete stop down of the boat where weight of water is now alone against buoyancy thus looses and boat comes back afloat. Pretty interesting study to be made there ;-)

I am starting to wonder whether you have ever been to sea in a large well designed cat? Not trying to be insulting in any way, just some of what you are saying bears no resemblance to the reality I have experienced

[CbroTheDude]

Originally Posted by Factor

I am starting to wonder whether you have ever been to sea in a large well designed cat? Not trying to be insulting in any way, just some of what you are saying bears no resemblance to the reality I have experienced

Well despite your supposedly restrictive opinion of a well-designed cat (does it go further than gunboat, outremer, seawind?) you'll be happy to learn that I have in some pretty rough seas, but as this was a purely theoretical study about an unproven design that you have already condemned (but certainly not tested) I wonder how you refer to your experience, and what kind of physics study you have done. No offence ofc

[barnakiel]

I think Bali are absolutely awesome for what they are designed to do.

Say I landed on a tropical island and wanted to charter something and spend a couple of lazy days with my kids snorkeling on the reefs in the lee of the mainland.

They offer heaps of recreation space, great vistas and easy control from the topdeck. A charter cat killing weapon.

If we want aero- and hydro-lift, long ocean passages and adrenaline pumping - one can elect something from the more expensive wing of Catana's portfolio.

Maybe the company simply grew that much that they filled up their specific niche. They decided to try something different, something more accessible and more mainstream. There is no progress without assuming some risks.

I will see them this winter in charter fleets in the Caribbean. Who knows maybe over time their specific beauty will grow on me. I did not like the vertical windows on Lagoons either, when they were the new thing.

It all takes time before new aesthetics catches up with the discerning eye ;-) and someone has to be the avant garde so that we can humbly drag in the tail of it all.

Cheers,
b.

[Sunsetslim]

Originally Posted by GILow

I got.

We just need a sarcasm and/or an irony font and so much miscommunication will be avoided.

I second that.

[Vander Woestijn]

If you're sailing a couple of months out of a year during the summer in relative calm waters island hoping = Bali 4.5.. what more do you need??

[Factor]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

, but as this was a purely theoretical study about an unproven design that you have already condemned (but certainly nothave tested) I wonder how you refer to your experience, and what kind of physics study you have done. No offence ofc

Fixed

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Vander Woestijn

If you're sailing a couple of months out of a year during the summer in relative calm waters island hoping = Bali 4.5.. what more do you need??

Sailing performance, perhaps?