Old Hull Vs Newer Hull

[uniopp]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

uniopp:

The very fact that you ask the question at all - as well as the manner in which you ask it - has the semblance of your not yet being an experienced sailorman. Even that you have very little sailing, let alone seafaring, experience.

You are 100% correct!! I am not an experienced sailor but are currently in training and getting my feet wet. My purchase of a larger vessel would be 2 years down the track after I have had more experience.
The question I ask was more of a hypothetical scenario so I can set my sight on either a 3 year old or an 8 year old vessel when the time comes.
I may actually have three choices when the time comes - New, 3 years old , or older but I currently have no idea, which will be the best way to go.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by uniopp

I considering purchasing a Leopard 45-52 for live aboard circumnavigation. A new version is out of my price range and the initial depreciation is a concern.

I’m interested to hear everyone’s opinion on which of the following scenarios is better-

Scenario 1:
Purchase a 2018 Leopard 45-52 for around $600,000 and use as is until things start to go wrong. It may not contain my preferred brand and all desired electronics.

Scenario 2:
Purchase a 2013 Leopard 45-52 for around $400,000 and replace all rigging, sails, engines and preferred brand electronics. I would replace the Diesel engine with Oceanvolt motors.

Which would you do and why?

If I replace most of the critical components (rigging, sails, engine, electronics) on an older hull, will I loose on my investment in the long run? Have I missed any critical components?

Also, is a 2013 hull (that has passed a survey) as good as a 2018 hull (that has passed a survey)?

Thanks.

I think I'd opt for option2 but just focus on the sails and rigging for now and save the rest for later. The electronics should still have some good years in them as well as the motors. I must confess, I was once a big proponent of electric engines but due to their excessive cost and performance promises they don't seem capable of, I'd rather spend that money on solar, LIFPo4 batteries and an electric galley. Electric motors probably will become a reality in the near future but right now I just don't want to be a beta test guinea pig (especially if they expect me to pay through the nose for the privaledge)

[uniopp]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

Electric motors " are the kiss of death on resale" (sic)
from 2 catamaran brokers

I'm interested to know why?
Is it because the technology is not quite there yet?


I actually like the Antares 44 Hybrid system that allows both diesel and electric propulsion (unfortunately, its a shaft drive).

https://www.antarescatamarans.com/an...ybrid-details/


Yanmar also have an electric system (with sail drives) but I don't thick it actually has diesel propulsion (only diesel charging).
https://www.yanmar.com/ltc/global/ma...picIndex03.jpg


Anyway, I'm interested to know more about "the kiss of death on resale".
Thanks

[Creedence]

I’m sure there are some technical reasons it lowers resale value, but one qualitative factor that would drive potential buyers away is because it is still somewhat non-standard. And it’s non-standard for a reason.

It could someday prove to be the best thing since sails, but used boats are rarely the place buyers welcome emerging technological innovation and “thought leadership,” particularly in areas as fundamental to seaworthiness as the power plant. Generally when it comes to the big-ticket seaworthiness items, buyers favor proven (and common- makes maintenance less of a headache in remote destinations) solutions.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by uniopp

I'm interested to know why?
Is it because the technology is not quite there yet?


I actually like the Antares 44 Hybrid system that allows both diesel and electric propulsion (unfortunately, its a shaft drive).

https://www.antarescatamarans.com/an...ybrid-details/


Yanmar also have an electric system (with sail drives) but I don't thick it actually has diesel propulsion (only diesel charging).
https://www.yanmar.com/ltc/global/ma...picIndex03.jpg


Anyway, I'm interested to know more about "the kiss of death on resale".
Thanks

Shaft drives are the preferable choice. Catamarans, due to their design tend to have sail drives but most people would opt for shaft drives if they could have them. Electric motors are probably bad for resale because a lot of people don't trust them yet. From a maintenance standpoint, they probably blow the diesels engines out of the water.

[TrentePieds]

uniopp:

Let's turn the tables - let me ask YOU a question in response to your stated liking for the Antares system:

What, PRECISELY, is it you expect the Antares system to do for you while you are living aboard and "doing a Slocum" that cannot be done better by other, simpler means? You might like to do a "compare and contrast" job :-)

TrentePieds.

[rramsden]

Especially if you plan on replacing outdated systems. Look older.
I bought a 20 yr old Fountaine Pajot. It had reasonably new engines and new electrics. My major expense is sails. And a lot less purchase cost.
Plus the older FPs have much better performance than the new ones.


Since you say you're still learning. There are internet site that connect crew with boats. Far cheaper than chartering. My biggest sail was crossing the Atlantic on a 47' cat. I'm in the opposite position now, and look for crew.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

We are only ever stewards of our sailboats for as long as we own them. Sailboats are *not* investments (well, not in the traditional sense).

Fair winds,
LittleWing77

They are GREAT investments but the return on investment doesn't come in the form of money

[CruiseN]

Originally Posted by uniopp

I'm interested to hear why?

Is it because the technology is not quite there yet?


I would actually prefer a hybrid system that allows both diesel and electric to power the same drive. Something like the external parallel in the Antares 44 Hybrid (although that is a shaft drive).
https://www.antarescatamarans.com/an...ybrid-details/


I recently came accross this Yanmar sail drive but I don't think the diesel actually drives the prop. I think it is just a charging generator.
https://www.yanmar.com/ltc/global/ma...picIndex03.jpg


Anyway, I'm interested to know more about why the resale price will be a problem.
Thanks

Opinion I share is because people aren't trained to operate an electric machine whereas with a diesel all they have to do is press a button. During maintenance a diesel is probably much much easier to understand. DIESEL WILL RUN SUBMERGED and being low mounted it's early to go under.
Electric water in a flooded hull probably scares some too.

Ain't knocking stink boats, but sail boats tend to know common laws better. We had starboard call upon us repeatedly by SMC because we held course and yelled reply basically ,' know mate, sail,'
Hence diesel just easier whereas modern sail boats can point true because they sail drive a generator that charge supplies an electric propulsion shaft.

People want reliability. They know how to fix a diesel whilst underway.

[Grattaway]

Personally I would go with the 2013 boat and replace what needs to be replaced. Its certainly young enough to do what you want and plenty of equipment on board wont need to be replaced at day 1. e.g. Lots of sails will likely still be in good condition

As far as motive power goes it usually doesn't make sense to change for any form of transport. If you wanted an electric vehicle you buy one but don't repower an existing petrol or diesel as lots of issue can arise besides the repower and it doesn't make economic sense. Boats more so, as you will go to places where the expertise and spares to service are lacking.
If you are thinking of doing the right thing by the environment by running electric the manufacture and install of the existing diesel option has most likely burnt all your carbon credits anyway and repowering makes the overall carbon impact worse

[PaulvR]

My 5 cents:

1, Glass fibre only ages when and as it flexes. The hull which had done the most work, regardless of age, will have 'aged' more. The Leopard guys will know where to look for stress fractures etc. You want to avoid structural hull work on your new boat!

2. Leave the diesels!
I am prepared to bet that the environmental impact building 2 new engines and a genset and all the solar and wind and hydro....will cost both you and the planet way more in cash and resources, than if you maintained, appreciated, and used the power plants you have. This is a newbies focus you have here, I suggest you put the electric motors at the bottom of the list, or build new with them installed.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by uniopp

I considering purchasing a Leopard 45-52 for live aboard circumnavigation. A new version is out of my price range and the initial depreciation is a concern.

I’m interested to hear everyone’s opinion on which of the following scenarios is better-

Scenario 1:
Purchase a 2018 Leopard 45-52 for around $600,000 and use as is until things start to go wrong. It may not contain my preferred brand and all desired electronics.

Scenario 2:
Purchase a 2013 Leopard 45-52 for around $400,000 and replace all rigging, sails, engines and preferred brand electronics. I would replace the Diesel engine with Oceanvolt motors.

Which would you do and why?

If I replace most of the critical components (rigging, sails, engine, electronics) on an older hull, will I loose on my investment in the long run? Have I missed any critical components?

Also, is a 2013 hull (that has passed a survey) as good as a 2018 hull (that has passed a survey)?

Thanks.

If I replace most of the critical components (rigging, sails, engine, electronics) on an older hull, will I loose on my investment in the long run? Its a boat, doubtful there will ever be a recoup on any upgrade.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by PaulvR

My 5 cents:

1, Glass fibre only ages when and as it flexes. The hull which had done the most work, regardless of age, will have 'aged' more. The Leopard guys will know where to look for stress fractures etc. You want to avoid structural hull work on your new boat!

2. Leave the diesels!
I am prepared to bet that the environmental impact building 2 new engines and a genset and all the solar and wind and hydro....will cost both you and the planet way more in cash and resources, than if you maintained, appreciated, and used the power plants you have. This is a newbies focus you have here, I suggest you put the electric motors at the bottom of the list, or build new with them installed.

Probably right on point 2. Not only that, if you want to save carbon, buy a smaller boat that's rigged to point high (e.g. dagger boards and performance sails/rigging, and is very high performance in light air. You'll sail more, motor less. No genset or A/C.



As for practical use - most cruising cats are motored more than sailed, due to impatient owners, lazy owners, schedules, and adverse wind conditions.

[SailFastTri]

As for the original question: Get the boat you like. This is an irrational, personal and emotional decision, so decide what you like (in your gut) and justify it any way you can.

[ohdrinkboy]

I'd go scenario 2 and keep the diesels Just replace key wear components on the diesels or buy and keep spares. You'll never come close to getting your money back even going this route. Switching to electric would just be throwing more money away.