Older Leopard vs newer Lagoon

[themorb]

Looking to get our first cat sometime between now and next summer. Watched lots of videos and read lots of articles and we are pretty certain we want a Leopard 46 from around 2008-2011 range. Family of 5, kids aged 7, 9, and 11. Budget <450K USD.

I just reached out to a buyers' agent and he is trying to steer me far clear of "older" boats and suggesting something shorter and newer, such as a Lagoon 40/42 in the same budget.

Would be curious to hear anyone's thoughts... Whether it be cars, RVs, or houses, I have always been the type to buy older quality rather than newer for the same price, and so far that mentality has served me well. But maybe boats are different?

[flee27]

Don't have personal experience other than chartering cats. But for me I would take an older Leopard over a newer smaller Lagoon. From my relative small experience I think the Leopards are better built and older better built generally speaking.

I know charter boats live a really hard life but some of the cheap "wood" work I have seen on new cats coming apart is un called for IMO. My 35 year old boats interior is in better shape than many 1-2 year old charter cats I have been on. If it was my 500K-1M in the boat I would be very unhappy with the workmanship.

Anyway good luck with your search and future boat.

Foster

[LeeV]

The standard rule of thumb is the newest, largest you can afford. Build materials, processes and composite advancements “generally” produce better, lighter boats.
The other consideration is that while older cats may seem solid that doesn’t necessarily equate to quality. The Leopard 46 has always been my favorite but they’re getting long in the tooth and require not just complete refits but the last one I had surveyed had foot wide sections in several places under the bridgedeck heavy with moisture content. I walked away from that boat and the sellers wound up dropping the price way down later on. The work to fix it was costly, lengthy and time consuming- all contributing to a sizable additional cost event.
The L46 prior to that had water under all the floorboards. I’d love a nice Catana for my final boat, but can only afford an older one bust I just won’t afford the cost or time to rebuild an older boat.
Your buyer’s broker’s recommendation is based on the info above AND you’re a new cat owner taking a family of newbies on a massive adventure. IF things don’t go well, a newer boat is easier to sell,, although a 40 would be fairly small unless its a 4 cabin Lagoon 40/410
Just my $.02 worth

[Fore and Aft]

themorb having surveyed both I would have a Leopard as the build quality is better in my opinion. Not just because of the bulkhead issues (only the third post and Lagoon bashing has started) but overall the Leopard is a better finished boat.
Cheers

[Tin Tin]

The early L46 had rear bulkhead issues, they also do not have the internal steps up to the helm. Aim for a 2009 - 2010 model these were much better.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

themorb having surveyed both I would have a Leopard as the build quality is better in my opinion. Not just because of the bulkhead issues (only the third post and Lagoon bashing has started) but overall the Leopard is a better finished boat.
Cheers

To be clear, I was only commenting on the broker’s suggestion of a Lagoon. We just sold our Lagoon 450F, which was one of the most popular of their boats, and I must say, one of the best layouts and most fun of all the cats (and our 4 tris) I’ve been on. We also had to have the bulkheads reinforced before selling, but we only sold because the boat was too large for two of us, and we’re downsizing. My wife never liked the Leopard 46 as it’s too closed in and “dark” inside when comparing to more recent boats from any manufacturer. We both love the leopards; we just can’t afford one unless the market normalizes (signs of that are already showing with many more boats on the market), and we buy a 5-9 year old version.
The only Lagoon I’d buy h for us) would be a 42 with a meticulous survey.
We’re looking at staying between 40 and 44. Leopard, FPajot, Nautitech, Catana…

Keep in mind, they all have had issues: Leopards infamously have window issues - falling out, cracking, hazing, etc…, hence the need for one person at Just Cats who does nothing but work on windows in older and newer boats. FPajot had a run of boats with massive osmosis issues, the Lavezzi being the worst.

Find what works and get a good surveyor with many boater’s recommendations - not necessarily from your broker. ALL brokers hope for quick and easy sales, and unfortunately a few may recommend a surveyor of the same ilk. Jonathan Sands would be my choice if available.

Good luck

[SVNeko]

What you really should be looking at are the older, VPLV designed Lagoons.

[smj]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

What you really should be looking at are the older, VPLV designed Lagoons.

Or other manufacturers, as there are plenty of good cats out there that aren’t built primarily for the charter industry.

[SVNeko]

I am referring to the early Lagoon 47 and 55, and for that matter the similar but souped-up Switch 51. These were not built for the charter trade, but solid boats with good sailing qualities. (NB and the typo above should be VPLP) Older, well-built boats are likely to have been upgraded already. Buying a 10 year old boat will put all the refitting on the new owner.

[smj]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

I am referring to the early Lagoon 47 and 55, and for that matter the similar but souped-up Switch 51. These were not built for the charter trade, but solid boats with good sailing qualities. (NB and the typo above should be VPLP) Older, well-built boats are likely to have been upgraded already. Buying a 10 year old boat will put all the refitting on the new owner.

I agree, the first batch of Lagoons produced were a different breed compared to what comes out now.
But I also believe there are many other brands of cats out there that deserve a good look.

[Sam Woodbridge]

I’m very interested in this thread. I really like how the OP put this

I have always been the type to buy older quality rather than newer for the same price, and so far that mentality has served me well

It’s too bad he isn’t participating with this thread yet?

I’m not ready to move onto anther boat, but if anyone is interested. I bought a 2018 Beneteau with 99 engine hours on it. I’ve been very disappointed with the laminate they use on the cabinets. I bought a plastic can of wood glue just so I can glue stuff back into place. The flooring laminate is robust though. I think you can see where I’m going with it.

I don’t regret at all getting something newer not by any stretch. I bought what I did for several reasons. I do see the pros and cons. I’m curious to see what boats like mine will look like in ten or fifteen years inside. It’s not going to look good unless someone redo’s the ikea look into what’s real or better.

Good luck with your decision OP and thank you everyone for the responses!

Sam

[arsenelupiga]

watching nahoa YT channel and his 10 to 20 % spend on maintenance, lagoon 410 + couple other brand boats i was able to track, i would say newer is less money spent over buy - 5 years use - sell cycle. In saying that, there is quite variation in build quality boat to boat of same manufacturer and year. Maybe different teams, some more experienced some less, some more motivated, etc. Also there is maintenance component that ages boat, sometimes very rapidly and other owner boat keeps qualities over years. Example Lagoon 400 nacelle issue - if addressed early, there was no damage, if not there was damage and considerable repair and potentially weakened structure. Get owner of the brand that do inspection for you. Surveyors just cannot know the weak spots of particular boat nd follow generic schedule that will not give most times true picture.

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Originally Posted by themorb

Looking to get our first cat sometime between now and next summer. Watched lots of videos and read lots of articles and we are pretty certain we want a Leopard 46 from around 2008-2011 range. Family of 5, kids aged 7, 9, and 11. Budget <450K USD.

I just reached out to a buyers' agent and he is trying to steer me far clear of "older" boats and suggesting something shorter and newer, such as a Lagoon 40/42 in the same budget.

Would be curious to hear anyone's thoughts... Whether it be cars, RVs, or houses, I have always been the type to buy older quality rather than newer for the same price, and so far that mentality has served me well. But maybe boats are different?

For a family, the difference in boat length between a 46' and 40/42' is significant. It is the difference between having forward coffin cabins or not. Packing, living, and storage space becomes crucial.

Newer has advantages, but going smaller is a serious consideration.

And remember, there are some lagoons with bulkhead problems on the 45s - be on the lookout for that.

An older larger boat with new upgrades and good maintenance could be a better buy than a new smaller boat. Have to evaluate each one on their own merits.

[themorb]

Hi, thanks all for the replies. Sorry I haven't been participating more in the thread but life gets busy. Anyway the replies have come, and kind of confirmed what I was thinking... Newer designs probably make better use of space but skimp on quality of surfaces (laminate cabinets, floors, etc.) Will be interesting to see what they look like in 10-20 years but also look at a Privilege from 20 years ago and they aren't perfect either. I was docked beside a Lagoon 450 on the weekend, and bulkhead problems or not, that was a pretty darn nice and large looking boat by "Pacific Northwest standards."

At the end of the day each boat is unique and I probably really just need to get to the Caribbean and step foot on some. But to answer my initial question, I am thinking to ignore that broker and definitely consider boats in the 2010 range vintage.

[MountainKing]

Also, look up the LWL for each boat on sailboatdata.com
The Lagoon 40 are only a 38' long boat. The Leopard 46 is pretty close to the name at 44.6' Leopard tends to include the length of the bowsprit in their model name lengths, that of course doesn't increase volume for you. Anyway, look up actual measurements on each boat, and yeah, get onto a couple (with your wife) before you get your heart set on one.