One off vs production (used)

[Training Wheels]

Yeah, okay.......

[Thumbs Up]

I thought it was good advice Sand Crab. Especially for such a substantial purchase as a cruising catamaran. I can't think of any boat brand that doesn't have some sort of following. At least mine had a designer (John Hitch). At least it wasn't Hot Rod! Maybe it will end up sold to some YouTubers .

[eyschulman]

All I can say is that whoever buys my very one of a kind one off boat is going to get a once in a lifetime deal. No it is definitely not for sale. It's layout is a little quirky but otherwise it is top notch in so many ways. Since there is no established market with ongoing manufacturer advertising I know when my family sells they will get less than half of the value verses a Grand Banks Eastbay that would have cost less.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by riki

Won't this be noticed by a surveyor and sea trial?

no.
A surveyor on a seatrial will notice if the engine overheats or if the halyard is worn or the headsail needs a new UV strip.

He can't comment on purely subjective things like motion at sea or performance under sail.

[eyschulman]

In a nutshell building a custom boat you get what you want, but in the aftermarket the next buyer may not want what you did. Production boats try to please a a wider population of buyers and considerable advertising may support that market.

[sailorladd]

A subject after my own heart..... Just briefly, I'll say that I was faced with the dilemma of acquiring a sailboat when I was very young (20) and was hell bent on sailing around the world)

I thought of the few options open to me and decided to build a boat from scratch, this way I could build her exactly as I wanted and as strong as I wanted... As it turned out I did build her, despite the odds, and sailed her around the world and still have her today now 40 years later and she's still going strong. Proof that one offs, even home built, have their merits I even wrote a book about this whole deal, expounding on the virtues of various designs and mediums to build from, good luck in your choice...

[Jim Cate]

In thinking about this issue, one must make a clear distinction between "home built" to an existing design (the Bruce Roberts boats, for instance), a home built boat to a home design, and a boat built by a professional shipwright or yard who specialize in one-off builds, whether to an existing design or to a true one-off design by a naval architect to the customers design brief.

The latter group is where one finds extraordinary vessels of lasting value. The former groups vary between wonderful and wonder why they bothered! It will take some careful inspections to tell the difference in some cases, others are VERY obvious!

Jim

[Icarus]

Interesting.. I have owned three custom build yachts in the past, the good thing was that they were build with a view of necessary maintenance in the future. ..access to valves, wiring and plumbing, engine and other mechanical contraptions was thought out and planned before the boat was constructed.
Now I own a 40 ft S&S production yacht and find it extremely frustrating when it comes to any sort of major maintenance, For example, To do any work on the engine one has to be 3ft tall or have multible joints...no thought has gone in how to change the engine down the track without taking halve the boat apart. .same goes for the plumbing and electrics.
I have worked on many production yachts and found the same niggling shortcomings with most of them.
If you think about it ..all ships big and small were custom build during the last 5000 years or so.
Happy days!

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

In thinking about this issue, one must make a clear distinction between "home built" to an existing design (the Bruce Roberts boats, for instance), a home built boat to a home design, and a boat built by a professional shipwright or yard who specialize in one-off builds, whether to an existing design or to a true one-off design by a naval architect to the customers design brief.

The latter group is where one finds extraordinary vessels of lasting value. The former groups vary between wonderful and wonder why they bothered! It will take some careful inspections to tell the difference in some cases, others are VERY obvious!

Jim

I knew a very nice guy that thought he could build a C-flex hull upright. That is certainly one extreme. The C-flex was OK laminating, on it overhead, was the fly in the ointment.

[ANJOKA]

I saw a beautiful Simonis 60 catamaran, 5th Child. Never heard of them before? It looks amazing

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

In thinking about this issue, one must make a clear distinction between "home built" to an existing design (the Bruce Roberts boats, for instance), a home built boat to a home design, and a boat built by a professional shipwright or yard who specialize in one-off builds, whether to an existing design or to a true one-off design by a naval architect to the customers design brief.

The latter group is where one finds extraordinary vessels of lasting value. The former groups vary between wonderful and wonder why they bothered! It will take some careful inspections to tell the difference in some cases, others are VERY obvious!

Jim

You've got that right.


Cheers,

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Everyone hates me


The point I was trying to make is that having a boat that was designed by a known professional sure helps whether you are buying or selling. JDazeys "Chris White Voyager" is a great starting point to any future sale. My old Crowther Buccaneer also has some provenance. On the other hand someones no name custom would be dismissed immediately by quite a few no matter how cool.


FWIW I took a spin in my old Buc this spring. Now I go out about once a week in my buddies MacGregor 26. It's almost a CW Voyager
Almost.

Yeah, don't take it too hard, SC. You've got an invitation to go sailing once we get back to Puget Sound.


Cheers,

[Morph]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Personally I would not want a production cat.

The only ones I could afford do not sail anywhere near as well as the boat I made. They have more trim, interior moldings and furnishings that I don't require or desire. They weigh more. Most don't have daggerboards, kick up rudders, or twin outboards. Their hulls are fatter. They often have heavily immersed transoms. Many smell of polyester resin inside the compartments, and could be susceptible to osmosis.

But really I wanted to build a boat that suited me. So mine has a wishbone boom, a three stay a side rig, staysail, cabin that allows forward vision inside, and safety from nice flat decks. She has been a great home for over 4 years liveaboard cruising.

And man does she sail, after 18 years I still love the way she sails. My boat still gets into the groove and we talk together and she slides, under reacher, down waves and up the next, on autopilot. Or with her deep boards, low windage and nice rudders she trucks to windward really solidly when almost every other boat in sight is motoring or motorsailing. They complain about the rough trip and we keep quiet about how our boat didn't work against the wind, but worked with it instead. About 8 day trips along the coast have been standouts - 10 knot averages on the chart for all day - once 160 miles in 16 hours. That means you get a heap done in daylight if you leave in summer just at false dawn. Crossing Bass Strait and sliding along at 14 knots for four hours - really getting the miles done in a boat that seems to enjoy it as much as you do. My home, my refuge for sanity, my dream maker, having fun with me.

Sure I could try to buy an Outremer, but I liked building mine and it produced a boat that fits me like a glove. I always wanted to build a boat and have never ever wanted a production boat because mine was designed and built to really SAIL and building was the only way I could afford it.

So if you are a cruiser who loves sailing to windward and gets a thrill from setting a kite or reacher a Pescott, Grainger, or Schionning etc could the be the thing. This forum is heavily biased to US idea of production but here in Oz we have a great history of producing fabulous custom multis. It used to be the only way to get a good multi.

And interestingly, like Jim, I have had three friends all ask if I wanted to sell her. Those who know her, like her and that suits me fine.

I couldn't have written that better..
I spent 6 years finding the right design and right builder for my boat--it was a Mark Pescott design built by Ross Blair in Noosa. Both have superb reputations and I knew there was no way I could build it as well as Ross (and I was right).
I got Ross to build shell and I then completed the interior--a project, while highly satisfying, is not to be taken lightly. Australia has no problems with Western Red Cedar and epoxy is fantastic--strong and no osmosis. The only hassle I had with the build was a leaking hatch that the apprentice did not bed in properly--and I could fix that!

I love my boat!!! it sails like a dream I have access to everything for maintenance, I chose the quality of the fittings, eg through hulls etc, there is little I can't fix myself and I had the interior exactly as I wanted it.

Alas I have sold her, however while I did loose money, having a well respected designer and builder saved the day--the guy who bought it saw her going 10 knots upwind on autopilot while we had a beer and made the offer then...

Overall, I spent about what I would on a similar sized production boat, there was lots of sweat equity but I got a boat that exactly matched what I wanted with pretty good resale--oh and 10 years of joy!

[Jim Cate]

If you think about it ..all ships big and small were custom build during the last 5000 years or so.

Umm... what about the hundreds of Liberty ships built by Kaiser during WW2?

But otherwise, I agree with your post!

Jim

[dfelsent]

Both my boat and house are one off. Neither has a manual.

The house was built by an unknown contractor with no plans.
It is wood frame post and beam construction. Because it is still standing after 196 years I’m not too concerned about build quality.

The boat was designed by a well known small firm with dozens of well known one off and production yachts to its credit. It was built by a yard with hundreds of one off and production yachts to its credit.
There is no manual. Just six or so three ring binders with manuals for all the component systems and sketches of most of the plumbing and electrical systems. This has been updated by all owners.
She has been well maintained by the previous three owners. Multiple repowers, all new rig etc.
She is still sailing after 46 years.
I’m not concerned about her either.

My point is that any older used boat, or house, has a value that depends in large part not only on the reputation of those involved in design and construction, but on the maintenance history.