Organizing the Cats by Performance

[Factor]

Originally Posted by AllezCat

Downwind mini keels may be faster???
But, my research shows they are slower.
Catana - Catana 42 - Design and Safety
"...When sailing downwind, fixed keels are like having permanent brakes on your boat, due to their friction and drag. .."

perhaps you can provide research to the contrary...

.

Okay - how about this years gladstone race - which is predominantly down wind or at least off the breeze, 308 mile,

Catana - 47 foot - 36 hours - 8.5 knots average - Boards (& spinnakers) - and this boat was skippered by a bonefide genuine gun ocean racing multihull legend.

Seawind 1160 - 38 foot - 41 hours - 7.5 knots average - Mini Keels (and no spinnaker)

Doesnt seem like the boards really did or didnt do much hey. a boat 25% longer flying downwind sails didnt actually go that much faster. All else being equal I would have expected a bigger difference bewteen a 38 and 47 foot boat.

Dont get me wrong - money no object I would build an atlantic 57 I suspect, with boards, but a boat without boards can perform okay. I will let you know about the GForce soon - a mate is building a big one, hopefully I will be on it for gladstone next year.

[AllezCat]

Originally Posted by Factor

Okay - how about this years gladstone race - which is predominantly down wind or at least off the breeze, 308 mile,

Catana - 47 foot - 36 hours - 8.5 knots average - Boards (& spinnakers) - and this boat was skippered by a bonefide genuine gun ocean racing multihull legend.

Seawind 1160 - 38 foot - 41 hours - 7.5 knots average - Mini Keels (and no spinnaker)

Doesnt seem like the boards really did or didnt do much hey. a boat 25% longer flying downwind sails didnt actually go that much faster. All else being equal I would have expected a bigger difference bewteen a 38 and 47 foot boat.

Dont get me wrong - money no object I would build an atlantic 57 I suspect, with boards, but a boat without boards can perform okay. I will let you know about the GForce soon - a mate is building a big one, hopefully I will be on it for gladstone next year.

Money is supposed to be no object, right?
Any way, I changed my mind
the lottery is 66 million tonight.
I will get all 3
Atlantic 57 for New York and North
Catana 582 based in the med
G17 for QLD. Unless you tell me it's not so great. Then the waterline would be their best?

my best day on st Francis 44 was 240 miles near Port Moresby - hitting 20knots. However, in 30,000 miles rarely did 200 (maybe 3 times). Typically light winds.
If I don't win the lottery I may get a Marquesas 56. Big, but probably not very fast...Always a trade off.

[Factor]

I'm pretty sure the G Force is going to be a good thing, but time will tell.

[smj]

Sorry alley cat let me try again. There is so much more to performance than daggerboard vs. Mini keel. Sure if you had two boats exactly the same except one had daggerboards and the other mini keels then the daggerboard boat would probably be quicker. There are other factors such as hull design, displacement, wetted surface, bridgedeck clearance and design, propulsion system etc. That come into play. To me a perfect boat would have daggerboards and outboards as I believe sail drives and shaft drives rob you of more speed than a mini keel could ever do.

[Factor]

SMJ - there such boats of course but only custom build, - Farrier F 41, Lizard 13 metre are two I know of

[AllezCat]

Originally Posted by smj

Sorry alley cat let me try again. There is so much more to performance than daggerboard vs. Mini keel. Sure if you had two boats exactly the same except one had daggerboards and the other mini keels then the daggerboard boat would probably be quicker. There are other factors such as hull design, displacement, wetted surface, bridgedeck clearance and design, propulsion system etc. That come into play. To me a perfect boat would have daggerboards and outboards as I believe sail drives and shaft drives rob you of more speed than a mini keel could ever do.

So true.
Schionning has the outboard option on some of their models.
Gotta be the best -for speed.

[smj]

In this years Ft. lauderdale to Key West race, approx. 160 miles I believe, a Seawind 1000 with stern extensions came across the finish line about one hour behind a Catana 581. That's actual time not adjusted, pretty impressive.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Factor

SMJ - there such boats of course but only custom build, - Farrier F 41, Lizard 13 metre are two I know of

Maybe one of these days but first I to will have to hit the lottery!

[Eleven]

Keels v Daggers
In all the books I've read, and advice from Prout Designers and Sailors the Long Aspect Ratio keel is far safer because at big heel angles the boat will slide sideways. Dagger boards, especially when deployed on the lee hull, will not.
Speed is fine, but for Cruisers (this IS their Forum?) dagger boards increase risk, need more care and attention, and increase cost.
I chose Prout because it's tough (long keels, skeg protected rudders) and good accommodation, even at 31ft. I'll spend longer at sea but I can't afford any more speed and I do want to get there every time.
Do I really want to share my lottery winners' boat with a semi-professional crew who don't think much of my slowing the boat down for comfort?

[Poco Loco III]

PlaceYachtDesignTCFScoreRace 1
[detail] Race 1 Start: 10:25:00 ASTFinishElapsedCorrectedPosCodeRace 2
[detail] Race 2 Start: 10:25:00 ASTFinishElapsedCorrectedPosCodeRace 3
[detail] Race 3 Start: 10:25:00 ASTFinishElapsedCorrectedPosCode1stTHIS SIDE UP
222 - SunsailLagoon 410
0.78064112ndmi corazon
BOW 64 - Nautitech 44
0.81573223rdGUIMAMALOU
BOW 146 - RICOUR JEAN MICHELBRAZAPI
0.905101634thURAL HAWKS
215 - Dream Yacht CaribbeanCATANA
0.899142755thAnchorage-Multicoques
274 - Anchorage-MulticoquesLagoon 420
0.791147346thOcean's 11
313 - SunsailLagoon 440
0.843165567thSuave
242 - Lagoon 470
0.902176478thFlorex
266 - VPM BESTSAILSalina 48
0.936248889thLucky 7
298 - Jay Don Mc ReynoldsLeopard 43
0.9172799910thARMANA
121 - VPM-BestsailBahia 46
2.000311011DNF10
close Race 1 - 10:25:00 AST Fri 5 Mar

[print] YachtRatingFinishElapsedCorrectedCodeScoreGUIMAMAL OU0.90515:09:5504:44:5504:17:511URAL HAWKS0.89915:35:4605:10:4604:39:232mi corazon0.81516:10:2905:45:2904:41:343THIS SIDE UP0.78016:27:3106:02:3104:42:464Ocean's 110.84316:25:3206:00:3205:03:565Suave0.90216:05:33 05:40:3305:07:116Anchorage-Multicoques0.79117:09:0506:44:0505:19:387Florex0.9 3616:49:0706:24:0705:59:328Lucky 70.91717:39:4207:14:4206:38:379ARMANA2.00017:04:09 06:39:0913:18:1810
close Race 2 - 10:25:00 AST Sat 6 Mar

[print] YachtRatingFinishElapsedCorrectedCodeScoreTHIS SIDE UP0.78013:03:0102:38:0102:03:151mi corazon0.81512:58:1402:33:1402:04:532Anchorage-Multicoques0.79113:04:2402:39:2402:06:053Suave0.90 212:52:1302:27:1302:12:474Ocean's 110.84313:07:3102:42:3102:17:005GUIMAMALOU0.90512: 56:3402:31:3402:17:106URAL HAWKS0.89912:59:2002:34:2002:18:457Florex0.93613:1 1:4502:46:4502:36:058Lucky 70.91713:30:0303:05:0302:49:419ARMANA2.000DNF11
close Race 3 - 10:25:00 AST Sun 7 Mar

[print] YachtRatingFinishElapsedCorrectedCodeScoreTHIS SIDE UP0.78012:59:5802:34:5802:00:521mi corazon0.81512:54:4302:29:4302:02:012GUIMAMALOU0.9 0512:48:0402:23:0402:09:293Anchorage-Multicoques0.79113:13:3602:48:3602:13:224URAL HAWKS0.89912:54:1202:29:1202:14:085Ocean's 110.84313:05:0602:40:0602:14:586Suave0.90213:00:22 02:35:2202:20:087Florex0.93613:23:2302:58:2302:46: 588Lucky 70.91713:28:5103:03:5102:48:359ARMANA2.00013:41:41 03:16:4106:33:2210

[Poco Loco III]

it looked better when I copy/paste it :-)

[Poco Loco III]

maybe this is better,,,


pos sail yacht entrant design TCF score Race: 1 2 3
1 222 THIS SIDE UP Sunsail Lagoon 410 0.780 6 4 1 1
2 BOW 64 mi corazon Nautitech 44 0.815 7 3 2 2
3 BOW 146 GUIMAMALOU 0.905 10 1 6 3
4 215 URAL HAWKS DYC CATANA 0.899 14 2 7 5
5 274 Anchorage-Multicoques Lagoon 420 0.791 14 7 3 4
6 313 Ocean’s 11 Sunsail Lagoon 440 0.843 16 5 5 6
7 242 Suave Lagoon 470 0.902 17 6 4 7
8 266 Florex VPM BESTSAIL Salina 48 0.936 24 8 8 8
9 298 Lucky 7 Jay Don Mc Leopard 43 0.917 27 9 9 9
10 121 ARMANA VPM-Bestsail Bahia 46 2.000 31 10 11
DNF
10

[Sand crab]

I'm back. Couple of comments. I never specified that this discussion was limited to French cats (notice Prout and Sunreef). It's just that these guys are the big players with high volume and/or a complete range. Dean, Robertson & Caine, could probably be added as could a few others. In general terms I still beleive that a builders line has more or less the same performance especially within a given time period. Daggerboard cats will almost always outperform a keel cat especially upwind and these boats are almost always more performance and less comfort oriented. The new Outremer 49 seems to be a great combination of the two. I like Catanas but dammit they are heavy and pricey. The new Catana 50 light should be spectacular. I like FPs past and present lineup and always thought the Bahia was a really fine boat. I did charter a Lagoon 380 and it seemed like we were slower than everybody which brings me back to the original question. Are Lagoons slow? I say they are in the bottom half of the performance category. They got volume at an affordable price and that's what sells most boats. THANX BOB

[slap]

Originally Posted by Eleven

Keels v Daggers
In all the books I've read, and advice from Prout Designers and Sailors the Long Aspect Ratio keel is far safer because at big heel angles the boat will slide sideways. Dagger boards, especially when deployed on the lee hull, will not.

In rough conditions, you pull up the lee daggerboad, and deploy the windward one partially. Of course, in really rough conditions, you pull up the daggerboards, making it harder to trip than with minikeels.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by slap

In rough conditions, you pull up the lee daggerboad, and deploy the windward one partially. Of course, in really rough conditions, you pull up the daggerboards, making it harder to trip than with minikeels.

Yep.
........