Organizing the Cats by Performance

[Roc Chambeau]

Outremers are over rated and uncomfortable. I'd match an older, tricked-out Lagoon 57 against a Outremer 55L anyday. Also, Gregor Tarjan works for Outremer so his book is obviously biased and misleading. (just count the number of photographs of each manufacturer.)

[jglauds]

FWIW, we sailed alongside a St Francis 44 for about 3 days as we crossed the Pacific -- we have an Orana 440 from Fountaine Pajot, loaded with genset and aircon.

They were 1 knot faster in all sorts of breezes and sea conditions *all following winds/seas), with identical sail areas. They did not have gen set/air con.

Some data.

[careka]

Originally Posted by Garold

For my wife, her list went something like: heads design, saloon comfort, galley facilities, cockpit comfort, heating, etc etc. Performance never entered her head. And I guess the manufacturers have to sell to her as much to me.

Funnily, as i get older, my list is starting to look very similar to my wife's!

Cheers

Garold

Nice. we Just orderd a new L380c, my wife is the admiral. it was not my first pick but hers,
And if i want here to be with me out sailing, well i had now choise.

[apneseth]

Guys - all you need is an admiral that agrees with the notion that speed matters. I tried to convince my wife to exchange our monohull for a Lagoon 380, but she was having none of it claiming that it was fat and ugly (she's an architect). The problem was solved when I found a Spirited 380 for sale.

I can't wait!

[careka]

Nice, where,when are you getting it home ?

[schoonerdog]

I've own a St Francis and owned a PDQ, I'd say St Francis probably has the production numbers that maybe a Manta did or Outremer does now. They're not aimed at charter, so they don't have the incredibly high production numbers. As to the sailing, yes, it's a definite plus. Ours has A/C, but no genset, A/C doesn't really add that much weight, but a genset certainly would. I think the SF has one of the higher SA/D. But I wouldn't want to challenge an outremer, and a shuttleworth or an Atlantic would be faster still, and I don't think I'd stand much of a chance against an FastCat 435, but I've never had the pleasure to see one yet. To give an idea of passage, left Miami on a Monday, Friday afternoon it was in Annapolis.

[Intentional Drifter]

Like schoonerdog, we also own a St Francis 44. They are a bit different than most in this size range. Lots of production boats seems to stress luxury accommodations at the expense of sailing qualities. I think of the St F as a sailor's boat that is also pretty luxurious.

We do have a genset and it costs us 350 lbs of payload. Yet, over time I've found that we started cruising by carrying far more than we needed. It seemed to take us awhile to figure out that: People eat everywhere, People drink everywhere, I don't need to carry a spare for everything, and there's lots of books that will fit on a computer or iPad and take up lots less space and weight. Duh.

The genset really doesn't seem to effect the sailing to a noticeable degree. While not an Outremer or Atlantic, we are routinely faster than just about any other 40 to 46 footer around, especially in light winds (which, really, happens far more than newcomers might think). Almost any cruising cat can do 10 to 12 knots in 20 to 25 without much effort. How many still can do 5 knots in 7 to 8, with just working sails? That's a major advantage often not appreciated.

Plus, we're still comfortable, too!

ID

[apneseth]

Originally Posted by careka

Nice, where,when are you getting it home ?

We are buying it in the Med and sailing it home in the spring. Although we just signed the contract so nothing is set in stone.

[Garold]

Originally Posted by apneseth

Guys - all you need is an admiral that agrees with the notion that speed matters. I tried to convince my wife to exchange our monohull for a Lagoon 380, but she was having none of it claiming that it was fat and ugly (she's an architect). The problem was solved when I found a Spirited 380 for sale.

I can't wait!

apneseth

Good luck with your new purchase.

'Fat and ugly' is a bit harsh, but even as a past Lagoon 380 owner, I can't really put up a strong argument if the boat doesn't appeal to you guys.

My wife's first degree was in engineering, so maybe she is more influenced by function rather than form. Who knows? Since my first degree was in psychology, any human behaviour is a mystery to me!

My earlier post was just intended to illustrate that what works for one owner/family may not work for another. And that most yacht purchasing decisions are a result of trying to meet the needs of several interested parties.

I actually like the heeling movement of monohulls but for my wife it was uncomfortable and felt unsafe, so we bought a catamaran. And now I have grown to enjoy the benefits such as sailing flat. However, I also regret losing the monohull advantages such as cheaper marina berths etc.

Anyway, maybe you can start anew thread when you have completed your purchase because the journey to shift the boat sounds interesting.

Cheers

Garold

[earthbm]

SA/Displacement also reflects how aggressive any given model is. Larger SA isn't faster if you have to reef it in the same wind when a boat with smaller SA doesn't.

Is it fair to say that w cats with the same BEAM can carry the same sail in any given wind? If so, wouldn't Beam/Displacement ratio be more representative of real world?

[Southern Star]

No. earthbm, it isn't fair to say. Other factors include displacement (heavier boats can carry more sail), CE of the sailplan, the CG of the boat and even windage.

Brad

[earthbm]

Yes to all of that, but if we are talking about a single practical measure. Beam/displacement gives the theoretical limit on how much speed you'll have in any given wind if you could carry unlimited sail. It's easy to fit a bigger rig on the same boat and call it "racing" or "extreme". That will help your speed in <10kt winds, but probably not much in >20kt.

Similar to cars... anyone can make a 5 liter engine and call it a "supercar". Try getting the same power out of 3 liter engine.

I would rank based on:
1. Beam/displacement
2. Sail plan efficiency (battened main, rotating mast), CE
3. CG

But there seems to be insufficient real world data to even get reliable numbers for 1.

[Sand crab]

I started this post and felt that i needed to jump in on a comment about a month ago. Outremers are by far the fastest cruiser of any of the large established builders. They are spartan and somewhat cramped but haul ass. The new 49 fixes the spartan and cramped parts but still retains the haulassedness. One could draw an analogy to a Dodge Viper. Cramped, hot, no cruise control but still hauls ass. If you want to go faster then you are looking at a lot money. And BTW any comparable size Outremer will smoke the sails off a Catana and I like Catanas. Light equals fast and Catanas are heavy although they are in the process of lightening their line and those boats should be something. Now, if we could just do away with the exposed helms. BOB

[Southern Star]

Sand crab, I hear you. Although some Catana owners quite like the twin aft helms. When one considers that virtually all steering offshore is done by autopilot and that you will be at the helm only for short sails/races/docking, then there are advantages to trimming the sail and docking from that location.

Brad

[Southern Star]

earthbm, you are of course not considering the SA/D ratio, the relative fineness and the Cp (prismatic coefficient) of the hulls, whether the boat has boards or, if keels, the dimesions and aspect ratio of the keels, etc. It would be akin to attempting to determine the real-world performance of a car based largely upon power to weight ratio and the size of the tires. One needs to consider factors such as the type/design of the suspension. the vehicles CG, unsprung weight, tire design/rating, the design of the brakes (and cooling for them), aerodynamic drag, gearing, etc., etc.

In the final analysis, there are a huge number of variables and the manufacturer's figures can be suspect; indeed, it is rare for the advertised displacement for a boat to be reliable (they are almost invariably understated). Furthermore, many boats do not sail on their design lines - eg. heavier than predicted construction/auxilliary equipment often causes the transoms of boats to be dragging in the water, rather than elevated. This can sap performance.

If the opinions expressed here/rankings seem to be too subjective, I suggest it is precisely because of these variables and the lack of side by side testing.

Brad