Our Dream of Sailboat Living + Questions

[petermjdavies]

HI - my first suggestion is that you break up your questions into different posts. Its wonderful that you have given so much detail about yourself and your aspirations. Very helpful.

I'd like to address the Caribbean versus Med discussion. I have limited experience in both, but here is my take for a newbie sailor.

Caribbean outside of hurricane season is easier with less weather variation. But in our limited time there we ended up motoring A LOT! More smaller islands, perhaps less choice of fresh food. Easy to attach yourself to a group of cruisers and gain friendships as you move through the islands which is attractive to some. Easier for North Americans, especially since English widely spoken.

Med is probably more expensive, especially peak summer. There are a LOT of southern Europeans who vacation on their boats in July and August which makes everything more crowded and expensive. Having said that there are ways to keep costs down. Med has more variable weather. Even in prime season you can get nasty weather which makes passage making for the experienced. I suspect that cats will also be more expensive to moor in Europe than in the Caribbean.

Med will give you more food culture and more culture in general. We really enjoyed Croatia for its history and easy sailing. Easy to get fresh food at local markets.

For me, most important is how many skills you have between you to help you reduce costs on board. Who can maintain the mechanical stuff on board? Have you budgeted correctly for spare parts? Can you both cook to a decent standard? Does someone have some medical experience or training at a basic level? The more that you can do yourself, the less you will spend on services. Have you got the right qualifications? Thinking french islands and europe here where there are requirements. How comfortable are you at entertaining yourselves on shore without using technology? Do you rely on TV/Internet for entertainment? Have you thought about how you are going to keep and use funds when you are travelling? Is there someone at home to intercept mail and help you make sure you keep up to date on official correspondence? If you are renting your home, who is looking after it for you?

Hope some of that helps. Would echo that the most important thing for both of you is to get out and sail and be sure that this is REALLY what you want to do. My wife and I have owned a small sailboat for 30 years. Most of what we do is weekend and short cruising based from the Hamble in the UK. Although we have crossed the channel many times, we have never wanted to do long distance sailing. We have chartered with others in different parts of the world to experience new cruising grounds. Although we hope to spend more time on our boat as we head towards retirement, we have decided that permanent long distance cruising is not for us. We have friends who have done it successfully. But we prefer to stay married, for the moment at least!

[Makena05]

Just seeing your post. We bought that Leopard....a 2006 L40, in 2015 in Tortola BVI. We were able to get price down below $200k U.S. We then put roughly $30k into upgrades such as stripped hull and new bottom paint, Watermaker, Solar System, Generator, New Main, New Sailbag & Stackpack, Kayak, Paddleboard, haulouts and other fixes (stuff happens) and other comfort items. We sailed the Caribbean for about two years....were never bored....just too much snorkeling, etc. to enjoy. Plus at each location we visited there were excellent people to enjoy. For boat maintenance we averaged just under $700/month for the first year and just about $1000 per month in year two....that is just upkeep and maintenance....no dockage ($900 for a year) fuel ( about $1000/yr) and food and entertainment. We sold our Catamaran in the Turks & Caicos due to family issues but now live on a trawler in FL. Feel free to ask more questions if you feel the need. Lots of good info on this forum.


Live the Dream.



Kevin
kspellman02@yahoo.com

[mcerdos]

Answers for You

1. Caribbean vs Mediterranean?
Caribbean is the place to be. During hurricane season, go to ABCs or Grenada. Also, if you need more money, you can work in the USVIs or Puerto Rico. We recently me a couple who work in the USVI and during H season they cruise the San Blas Island of Panama (don't forget there is a western Caribbean - with no hurricanes)

If you want to travel Europe, do it by train. Look into VAT tax and visas and you will soon understand why cruising Europe by boat is crazy.

2. Internet Options?
Google "Project Fi". This is by far the best option for a cruiser. What cellphone carrier and what is the coverage like at sea? There are no cell towers in the ocean.

3. Financing a Boat?
Never finance a boat, ever! If you have to finance it, you can't afford it. With that said there are many institutions willing to lend money such as Bank of America who will finance a boat for 20 years. Go to a boat show, lenders are everywhere.

4. Paid vs Listed?
It looks like most boats sell for about 10-20% under the listing price right now. Is this accurate?
Yes and no. If you are looking for a deal, it will take you longer to buy a boat. In some cases we have known people to pay asking price for a boat and have the owner spend two weeks explaining the boat as part of the deal. When you find the boat you know is right for you, don't haggle on the price too much. You stand the risk of loosing the option to purchase as if the boat is desirable others will be looking at it.

5. Do You Ever Get Bored?
Yes! It is not all cocktails and dreams. It is a lifestyle that gives you what you put into it. Like anything else, things get old.

6. Cost to Maintain + Dock fees?
I don't know of any marinas in the Bahamas that are a good deal. They are far and few and very expensive. Live on the hook. Cheaper and nicer.

7. Boat Name Suggestions?
We like Cream Puff - but sorry - that's taken.

If you want specific info about cruising - drop a line to us via the blog or PM here with an email so we can write back. Happy to help but we don't care much for posting on CF as there are a lot of angry old men who will argue about everything.

[turtleofdart]

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

Like a couple of other posters above who have cruised, and have talked to many many people who are excited about cruising, but will never leave the dock, my advice is forget about the boat for the moment. Focus more on finding out if you like sailing, and if you do, getting a bit of experience so you can make the right decisions about the right boat, gear and location for you at some point in the future.

There are some advantages to learning to sail a little boat first, but it is a slow path, and not compulsory. The thing I would focus on is getting some time on cruising boats, monohulls and catamarans. Either charter, which is not the same, but still valuable, or even better crew a passage on someone else's boat, or just do some racing locally. Every minute on the water helps.

Try and forget about buying your way to safety with electronics and gear. Yes the right gear helps, but the number one thing for safety is your attitude, skills and experience. Spend your money on building those, rather than getting gear. One approach to that is to buy a learner boat, sail the sails off of that for a couple of years, and then sell it and buy the boat you want to go cruising on. That way you will build the skills and experience to help you get to the dream.

Don't get me wrong - the dream is a good one and achievable. Just focus on yourselves before you focus on the boat and the technology.

Mark

that is really good advice. you and your skills are the most important asset. when you get used to it even smaller boats will be very spacious. living on a boat is a different mindset and the smallest easiest to handle and possibly shallow draft are things that have real value. mooring a big boat costs a lot more than a small boat. the latter can often be accommodated free of charge up small creeks. in my experience small monohulls are easy to handle and we can get ours up the smallest creeks in western england as well as the inland water ways of france. I can tell you from experience that getting into a small waterway from the bay of biscay in winter is a delicious feeling. many cruisers live permanently on monohulls less than 30 feet long with drafts of less than four. invest in anchors and chain and learn how to use them. it is the difference between paying nothing and £40 a night a marina charges.

get out on small boats, dingies and dayboats and explore the shallow waters and anchor for lunch... swim and make love! that is the cruising life and build from there. I have met many owners whose boats were too big or complicated for their experience. the boats become millstones around necks.

even when sold at a loss, they are still relieved to get rid of it.... some chose small dayboats and enjoy their cruising life.

we have very few electronics on board. we use a leadline for depth and find we can actually feel the nature of the bottom. echosounders can't. a handheld Gps, VHF radio, handbearing and steering compass, charts ,pilot books, dividers, navigational triangles and trailing log are all you need for navigation.

less is more. a few years ago we took off for nine months with four people and a dog on a 28ft steel bilge keeled cutter. we love it... the space we have onboard is huge...and we seldom pay marina fees.

youtube putyoursailsup for some more info on working away from home... that's me busking on the trumpet

enjoy every minute on the water bro!

[surf_km55]

Originally Posted by KingGuppy

.....Experience
Yeah, we have none. .....

Stop. Do not pass GO.

Put the board game away & go sailing until you can actually sail. Then, and only then, spend 3 months on a sailboat that you didn't buy.

The above algorithm will yield all of the answers you seek.

[Thirdbestfriend]

I found this video illuminating for some of the ins and outs of boat loans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T86bgoh2KGE

And this was a pretty useful post for me on marine insurance:
What Marine Insurance Companies Don't Want You To Know

Good luck.

[Companera]

Originally Posted by KingGuppy

Hello Cruisers,

We're hoping to get some expert advice and help by the cruisers here (you) over the next couple of months as we make way on achieving our dream. We'll use this post to document our journey and fill others in on answers to questions that they may have.

About Us
Let me fill you in on our story before bombarding the questions. My wife and I are 31 years old, live in Florida, and want to attempt to fulfill our dream before that dream becomes unfulfilable. How can we afford full time sailing being so young? We can't... yet. Luckily both of us have a strong work ethic and have worked 2 full time jobs for years.

The Dream
38-45ft Catamaran
Leopard or Lagoon
2005+
Under $300k
1k+ AH Lithium Battery + Solar
Full time livable

Boat Money
Saving money is what we do best, but one of the largest obstacles we're still working at overcoming, is earning an income while sailing. We both run 2 separate marketing businesses (I do web design, digital and print marketing, and she does photography and social media management) that are 95% remote work, but we still need to grow these drastically. Our other jobs are only about 70% remote work and they provide the majority of our income. We may lose these when going sailing, so gaining more marketing clients is a top priority for us.

A few years ago we purchased a home before the market took off and plan to rent it when we go sailing. We'd love to hear others experience who have done this. We bought the worst house in the best neighborhood and remodeled it ourselves. We payed $150k in 2015 and its worth $320k currently. Our home expenses are roughly $996mo and the rental rate is $1800mo. (Mortgage $500, HoA $280, Insurance $75, Property Tax $141). Assuming $300mo of that goes for repairs and management company, that still gives us $500mo income.

YouTube / Vlog / Blog may be a pivot point in the future for sustainability. We both market about $50mil in other peoples businesses, so why not try marketing ourselves? If you're familiar with The Wyns or La Vagabond on YouTube, we'd consider doing the same thing. We've only made a 4 minute video before in 2014 which got us accepted for the show The Amazing Race. We already own the photography equipment and the video editing knowledge, so this seems like the best route.

Why Sailing?
Freedom. We've been drawn to the idea of "vanlifing" for years, but the stigma of living out of your car is not great. We own a great home in a great neighborhood, but the idea of living in an RV and traveling everywhere seems like freedom. I was hooked on this until I realized living in a sailboat full time was even a thing. Being able to sail around the entire planet is true freedom.

Experience
Yeah, we have none. In the past 10 years we've taken maybe 10 cruises and traveled to 20+ countries, including all over Europe. Throughout these adventures, we've had several ocean boating experience, including one in Italy where they let us rent a motor boat to drive around the island of Capri. We almost got stranded in the middle of the ocean and later almost hit rocks. What we learned from all these trips is that we love the water, but would probably not last a day with our current skill set.

We're currently a month deep into reading sailing guides, watching YouTube videos, and playing a Sailing Simulator to learn the ropes before we'd ultimately take the ASA sailing classes next year.

Questions for You
1. Caribbean vs Mediterranean?
Online boat shopping leads us to believe that buying in Greece or Croatia and sticking the Greek islands is a great way to get started, at the cheapest price. It looks like the Mediterranean has better cities to visit, but the Caribbean has better snorkeling. Anyone been to both and can share their experiences of both?

2. Internet Options?
Irridium Go + Cell Phone Data seem to be the go-to option for everyone unless you're paying $1000+ mo. What internet option is everyone else using? What cellphone carrier and what is the coverage like at sea?

3. Financing a Boat?
I haven't been able to find much about this. We'd prefer to finance the boat putting 20% down. What type of requirements is the bank going to need to lend us potentially $240k for a boat (second home!)?

4. Paid vs Listed?
It looks like most boats sell for about 10-20% under the listing price right now. Is this accurate?

5. Do You Ever Get Bored?
We'd likely buy in Florida and sail around the Bahamas and Eastern/Southern Caribbean for a year or two to start. YouTube makes it seem like a dream, but how often are you just bored? I picture sitting anchored in shallow clear water most of the time, with still being in range of some kind of cell phone internet access.

6. Cost to Maintain + Dock fees?
The internet says 10% a year, but $25k a year just to maintain a 42ft sailboat seems drastic. Is this accurate? If our plane is to use free anchorage whenever possible, i'd suspect this number to be much lower. Also, is it true that some marinas in the Bahamas charge 80% less a month to dock there than in Florida?

7. Boat Name Suggestions?
I've read keep it short and simple. We initially thought one of our business names to maybe drum up business from other sailors at anchorages (photography of their boats to use when they sell), but the business names are our names. Maybe King Guppy?

I think this is all I have for now. If you've read all this, I apologize for wasting your day, but maybe your answers to some of the questions above will help numerous people.

Let me know if you're interested in us keeping this post updated with our progress.

Thank you cruisers!

Best wishes to you & your wife; I’ve sailed most of the worlds oceans & still have so much to learn. That’s the truly wonderful joy of sailing!
Most importantly, does your life partner truly share your dream & passion; what are her dreams? Over the years, I have,sadly, witnessed relationships come apart & dreams & $$ lost even before they left the docks.
It is great that you are carefully reviewing both your plans & life status & particularly while you are still young. Don’t give up your dream but remind yourself that there are many paths to achieving it.
There are many sailing associations & yacht clubs that can offer you numerous sailing opportunities on a variety of vessels. Most are looking for eager recruits for racing, cruising & friendship. On the West Coast, Latitude 38, promotes the Baja Ha Ha, a fun fleet of mostly sailboats leaving from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas. It is easy to sign on as crew. Last year I was joined by 2 delightful young people, one who had never sailed before. We had great fun. If you do anything similar, insure that you both can go as a team. Your working together, sailing together & most importantly, having fun together is what makes life just magical.
PS: The Sea of Cortez is one of the worlds best cruising grounds.

[argonauta1]

First things first. A keel boat is cheaper in several ways not the least of which is cost of docking space. Sea worthiness is of course debatable but from one who has skippered a circumnavigation in a 45 foot sloop; it is the best way to go. Cats tend to offer a smoother ride but not always as it depends on point of sail. Ruggedness is what you need for serious offshore sailing. The keel boat offers better security. Note some of the pictures of wrecks in the BVI after IRMA. The multi hulls fared worse in the hurricane holes and mariners as the wind got under the trampoline and inverted many. Sudden dismasting is not unusual in a multi hull as rig stress can be more severe in strong conditions. We knew folks on a 45 foot cat that was dis masted off New Caledonia and it was not a capsize or pitch pole situation.

Before going much further, charter somewhere and try different vessel types. The British Virgins is a great spot to do this. Above all, continue to do what you are doing: network and seek the opinion of others before committing. Best of luck

[Koz1]

Originally Posted by KingGuppy

The S&P 500 National Return Rate Avareages
2015 - 11.96%
2016 - 12.25%
2017 - 22%
2018 - Waiting on it.

Loan rate on a 20yr marine loan is 4.99%. This means on every $100k i borrow, I get to keep my $100k vested, making 12% minimum return minus the 5% loan, which leaves me 7% gain, or $7,000. So borrowing $200k and keeping my $200k vested gives me $14,000 off investments alone. This is assuming 2015 numbers when the market was terrible. Assuming current numbers around 20%, I get 15% or $15,000 per $100k vested ($30,000yr for the full $200k vested).

By taking a loan and not using my own money I'm able to earn $14,000-$30,000 a year of just returns AFTER paying back the interest rate.

Gotta be somewhat financial savvy to afford a $300k boat at 30, right?

math

I'm a financial planner, and I'm going to give you some free advice. Never invest 100% in the S&P 500. I wouldn't do it for myself nor any of my clients. The average is actually around 9% and can vary wildly. You need to own other asset classes, small cap, international, etc. etc.

What you posted is crazy town stuff that I would never put in a financial plan. 12% minimum returns, hahahaha. If only it were that easy mate.

[Kenomac]

Having read through all of the posts, it now appears that we’ve been doing everything wrong over the past eight years of ACTUAL cruising, the first two on our Hunter 450, then the next six on Oysters in the Med.

According to the majority...

1. Wrong location for things to do
2. Wrong size boat
3. Wrong financial plan
4. Wrong cost estimates
5. Wrong location to keep costs down
6. Wrong location for weather

So... if the OP Guppy would like some advice on how to do everything wrong going into season nine, please send me a pm anytime.

[LargeMarge]

Folks, based on your jobs == Internet and Internet == I wonder about your commitment to hardcore outdoor physical activity requiring your round-the-clock ability to constantly manage your environment... and instantly respond to threats... the wrong choice results in dismemberment or death.

Real-world, what are your skills? Welding might be a good start. Trouble-shooting an electrical system, a funky fuel system, a 'thunk clank' in your engine or genset.

I read your ability to earn money by tapping keyboards. I admire this. Often, I wish I could, but I was raised on a farm by all four grandparents and uncles and aunts, surrounded by animals and equipment requiring constant supervision.

I think fiat currency from fUSA is probably as good as any fiat currency. That stuff is certainly handier than chunks of gold and silver. But nobody in their right mind trusts their future to non-tangibles.

[ This refers to tangibles in your possession. Anything else is smoke-and-mirrors. ]

I like your idea of vlogging, however, as we see hourly, YouTube and other Internet platforms are owned by people with 'fluid' political agendas. How long before you are on their 'flag' list?

My opinion based on my experience:
*** Look at the rattiest seaport. Who consistently earns a living? (not talking government agents here). Are they consistently providing necessities such as food shelter water security medical companionship?

*** What skills can you add to your community? Skills equal value.


PS:
"Normalcy Bias"

Another way to say this:
"It was always this way so it will always stay this way."

Semper Gumby.

[smj]

Originally Posted by argonauta1

First things first. A keel boat is cheaper in several ways not the least of which is cost of docking space. Sea worthiness is of course debatable but from one who has skippered a circumnavigation in a 45 foot sloop; it is the best way to go. Cats tend to offer a smoother ride but not always as it depends on point of sail. Ruggedness is what you need for serious offshore sailing. The keel boat offers better security. Note some of the pictures of wrecks in the BVI after IRMA. The multi hulls fared worse in the hurricane holes and mariners as the wind got under the trampoline and inverted many. Sudden dismasting is not unusual in a multi hull as rig stress can be more severe in strong conditions. We knew folks on a 45 foot cat that was dis masted off New Caledonia and it was not a capsize or pitch pole situation.



Before going much further, charter somewhere and try different vessel types. The British Virgins is a great spot to do this. Above all, continue to do what you are doing: network and seek the opinion of others before committing. Best of luck

Yes but keel boats sink very quickly.

[Scout 30]

[QUOTE=KingGuppy;2705466]Hello Cruisers,

A few years ago we purchased a home before the market took off and plan to rent it when we go sailing. We'd love to hear others experience who have done this. We bought the worst house in the best neighborhood and remodeled it ourselves. We payed $150k in 2015 and its worth $320k currently. Our home expenses are roughly $996mo and the rental rate is $1800mo. (Mortgage $500, HoA $280, Insurance $75, Property Tax $141). Assuming $300mo of that goes for repairs and management company, that still gives us $500mo income.

I know you've got the financial part down but you left out a vacancy rate & depreciation on both your short & long lived items like the roof, paint, flooring, appliances, water heater, HVAC system, etc. If you include the monthly cost of the depreciation of these items you'll be lucky to have a positive net operating income.

[izzyforreal]

I'd second the recommendation of getting away from the preconceived boat idea. The mono/multihull decision should be the least of your concerns. To your credit, you've clearly given this a lot more thought than some others we've read about in the news lately, but, in order to avoid becoming a statistic, a good deal of on-the-water education needs to be your first order of business. I've been sailing for over 50 years. I've owned several racing boats and two cruisers. My wife and I just bought our getaway boat, a Tartan 40, and plan to start extended cruising next summer. To paraphrase what others have said, I'd buy less boat and have a bigger cushion for the unknown. Until you've experienced some sailing on different boats, you'll have no idea of what actually appeals to you.

There are all sorts of people who cruise or live aboard. I cruise primarily because I love to sail, and it affords me the opportunity to travel and spend time in places that I otherwise could not afford to visit for an extended period. For some others I think the sailing is secondary and they'd cruise The Bahamas in a Winnebago if they could.

Mark

[doctorbill]

You've gotten great advice and I've enjoyed reading it.
I have had many great experiences throughout my life that simply would not have happened if i didn't "dive in," so I like your enthusiasm.

"If anything is going to happen it's going to happen out there" so might as well get going.

I had no experience whatsoever when I decided I wanted to live on a boat.

May I suggest you do what my wife and I did? You can accomplish this in less than 6 months. Buy a boat and move onto it permanently in a marina.

Take ASA basic keel boat and advanced coastal cruising, charter boats in your local waters and do some Moorings trips on different boats, then get a broker and go out shopping and buy a decent liveaboard boat you can easily afford. We got a (Hunter Passage 420 for $147,000). The boat was very capable, not exactly "Blue Water" ready, but it was a lot easier to shop for basic production boats before having to worry about all the excessive necessities of a blue water boat.

Buying a big expensive boat is very financially easy if you are continuing to maintain your full income stream and the boat is your primary residence.

We then lived aboard in the marina in a slip, continuing to work our land based jobs, and sailing as much as possible (basically all free time spent on multi-day trips to all of the Channel Islands and Mexico (the local waters, <200 miles at most) as well as going out on day sails and afternoons after work, etc.
I did ton's of basic maintenance on the boat and in those two years I learned SO MANY invaluable lessons. We ended up moving for work and due to having a child sold the boat and bought a house. But those two years simply living on a boat and sailing a lot taught me so much about what would be involved in cruising full time. I also DEFINITELY know what I personally would want in a full time cruising boat. From that experience my wife and I are confident about what we will do differently in the future when we are ready to cruise, but no amount of reading could have taught us these lessons

First I can tell you from what I learned, the biggest is that though I immersed myself in living on and maintaining a 42 sailing vessel for 2 years, it is very hard to work a job at the same time unless everything "boat related" comes second nature to you and your job is very easy. I would not at all expect to be able to work the first couple years actively cruising until everything else had become routine.

Second, I tell many people that the hardest part was living in a small space. You really need to consider this. It will NOT be what you think to get rid of all your "stuff" and move into such a small space. This is a transformation of consciousness.

Third, regarding the financials, just know that there is a very obvious "inflection point" where the cost of not just buying but maintaining and running goes way up. It might be different for different people, but I personally see this somewhere around the 50 foot or greater monohull and 42' or greater cat. Anything this size or bigger is just exponentially more expensive for EVERYTHING. Like a whole different category of financial picture for the people who can afford them. Probably why most cruisers you see are in the 32-45 foot mono range? So, where I can see reasonably comfortably affording a 45', a 50' just seems to skyrocket out of reasonable cost.

Oh, and you of course need to watch the movie "Captain Ron."

Best of luck, from your posts I think you have a reasonable chance of accomplishing your dream in one form or another, but my personal advice is to quickly get yourself reasonably extended to the "point of no return" - just don't be reckless
Go get those lessons and buy the boat! Then have an estate sale.
At that point it will be your house, and if you find you don't like it after a few months, you can sell it and go back to land based living.
You see, you're not "all in" but you've had an adventure either way.
If you're comfortable, you can start heading out on longer and longer excursions, learning as you go, improving your boat, maybe deciding a different boat is for you, and eventually you will say, I think next year we're going to head back to the Bahamas only this time we're not coming back.

Also, you need to realize what's going to happen when your wife reaches the mid 30's and suddenly decides that she desperately wants children and how that will go...