Outremer 45, do they have a helm enclosure?

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I've never seen a C50 cockpit enclosure. Can you post a pic or 2?
Thanks

We have two, one is all eisenglass and the other all mesh, and they are interchangable, so we can mix snd match. And we have a set of awnings that can be used with either and removed.

If you look close you will see in the pics of inside the cockpit that we have the eisenglass side panels up (which are the ones we sail with in all types of weather) and the mesh back panels. The back panels have to come down (or roll up) when we sail.

You'll also see the amount of space in the cockpit because we have no steering station in it. We've sat 14 (not around the table) in the enclosed cockpit for dinner!

The C50 is not nearly as fast as an Outremer, and it's faily heavy for a cat (oir fully loaded liveaboard is about 23T). But we cruise at 8 - 9kn very easily and comfortably, and more if we want to push it.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Thalas

The Antares is a true bluewater cruise and one of the few cats I believe can handle higher latitude sailing.

I'd doubted very much..
I haven't sailed but had one in our yard for some repairs. They are heavy, very consevatively rigged , thus slow, and have narrow beam to hull length ratio.
Yes they are well made, strong boats but not suitable for high latitude sailing IMO. It's true that a cats like Orana, Salina, Leopard 39 and many Lagoons have made it to Cape Horn and Antares also can do it buyt I would never take her gto higher latitudes.


Cheers

Yeloya

[Thalas]

CookiesnTequila, your last picture has me asking all kinds of questions.

1) How can you claim to have great visibility from those helm positions? Do you really think you have better visibility than a raised bulkhead helm? Quite honestly, that setup looks incredibly dangerous as there appears to be a 90 degree blind spot from either helm including a large section of your direction of travel.

2) Do you really think that Aft helm is a safer/more protected position when on watch alone vs a raised bulkhead helm? Unless you're clipped in, ANY slip would likely result in a MOB situation. You also look incredibly exposed to weather at the helm.

Don't get me wrong... I'm a big believer in there being no one "right" boat and if that boat makes you happy, more power to you, but I'm at a loss for that setup in the open ocean.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by Shenan

Hello !
We do offer helm protection as an option on the Outremer 45', here is an example. She is a Norwegian catamaran, owner intend to charter the boat North of Norway...
We don't recommand it though, since to have it you need to lift the boom, reduce the mainsail, and you loose efficiency on the sailplan by increasing the gap between the boom and the bimini top.

So, if you want that option then the mainsail will be cut different then a standard O45?

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Thalas

CookiesnTequila, your last picture has me asking all kinds of questions.

1) How can you claim to have great visibility from those helm positions? Do you really think you have better visibility than a raised bulkhead helm? Quite honestly, that setup looks incredibly dangerous as there appears to be a 90 degree blind spot from either helm including a large section of your direction of travel.

2) Do you really think that Aft helm is a safer/more protected position when on watch alone vs a raised bulkhead helm? Unless you're clipped in, ANY slip would likely result in a MOB situation. You also look incredibly exposed to weather at the helm.

Don't get me wrong... I'm a big believer in there being no one "right" boat and if that boat makes you happy, more power to you, but I'm at a loss for that setup in the open ocean.

Too funny!! Do you seriously think that two of the best performance cruising cat builders in the world (Catana and Outremer) would have become and continue to be as successful as they are if they produced dangerous yachts???? I would argue the exact opposite.

Yes there are blind spots from the helms, but there are no compromises to safety at all - 1) it's 3 steps from one side to the other and we have full controls on each side. 2) I have full unobstructed 360 degree view from the inside nav station where I can control the boat completely, out of the weather, with hard lexan windows, not flappy canvas. And look at the overall freeboard and distance from sea to the boom. I can reach the end of the boom from the cockpit to attach a preventor etc. See Outremer"s post on raising the boom and shortening the main to accommodate a view from the in-cockpit helm - there is no compromise in performance on our boat.

There is also no reason for anyone to go out into the weather on a passage. Everything is done from inside and with full controle and visability. The only time I have to put weather gear on is if we are coming into port or an anchorage in heavy weather. Not on a passage.

If you managed to fall overboard from one of our helm stations you'd go into the Guiness Book of records for stupidity, because there is virtually no way to do so. It is hard-walled (helm wheel, side and seat) all around. When you stand or sit (we can comfortably do both - I've sailed a few raised helm station boats in rough seas - no thanks for me!!), you are very comfortably wedged into a cushioned cockpit. Two feet planted and being down as low as possible is much safer than any raised helm position. See the pic (when we sail there are double lifelines across from the seat, closing off the access to the transom steps).

Add to the above that all winches are controlled from standing (or sitting if you prefer) inside the cockpit. The ability to stand not only gives you extra stability, but also strength (although all our important winches are electric).

The minute you step up onto the non-slip area (out of the cork soled cockpit) you clip in to a jackline strap that goes all the way around (originally designed into the boat, not added afterwards), far enough inboard so that there is no way you can even get close to the lifelines - and the only reason to go up there is spinnaker work or if something goes wrong.

Add to all of the above the fact that we can actually sail to weather (35 dgrees apparent) all day long, at 9+ knots in 15+ knots of wind - but that's an entirely different discussion, and I would argue that the Catanas are as safe a design as exists.

I have sailed many different configurations of cats over 35 years of sailing, and the only configuration that might be better, are the forward cockpit designs like found on Atlantic and Gunboat etc., but they only become practical on larger, much more expensive cats.

[jmh2002]

At least from that photo it looks positively luxurious in a lot of respects. Also seems like a solid bar that retracts or folds could be fitted across the transom steps even more added peace of mind at sea if one so desires.

Makes me smile when I think that a lot of the first 10,000 or so nm at sea I did was mainly on race boats, with open cockpits, no dodger, no autopilot, and only a couple of feet above the sea...

[Sand crab]

Thanks for the posts and pics Cookies, that's a very cool boat. I never realized that you could do all that inside an enclosure. I think that's the first enclosed Catana I have ever seen.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

At least from that photo it looks positively luxurious in a lot of respects. Also seems like a solid bar that retracts or folds could be fitted across the transom steps even more added peace of mind at sea if one so desires.

Makes me smile when I think that a lot of the first 10,000 or so nm at sea I did was mainly on race boats, with open cockpits, no dodger, no autopilot, and only a couple of feet above the sea...

Second item on my winter to-do list is fabricating dyneema net gates for both sides from the helm seat backs to the cockpit railing. The two lifelines there, have always felt too light for me! When someone is in the helm, standing and leaning against that lifeline is a great place and way to stand and take it all in, as is leaning on them the other way when reeling in a fish!![emoji6]

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Thanks for the posts and pics Cookies, that's a very cool boat. I never realized that you could do all that inside an enclosure. I think that's the first enclosed Catana I have ever seen.

Thanks.
Don't forget, the three back panels come down or are rolled up when sailing. We only keep the two side panels down when sailing, but that fully protects the cockpit from forward and both sides. In about 10,000 miles of livaboard cruising in the Med, we have never gotten wet inside the cockpit when sailing, and only had to put wet weather gear on about 4 times.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

it's faily heavy for a cat (oir fully loaded liveaboard is about 23T).

My goodness, Loch Crowther would be turning in his grave.

[yeloya]

Do you really think that Aft helm is a safer/more protected position when on watch alone vs a raised bulkhead helm? Unless you're clipped in, ANY slip would likely result in a MOB situation. You also look incredibly exposed to weather at the helm.

The helm position of Catana's have been debated several times on the forum. The only negative I see is the visibility.., the view on the opposite side is impaired and this might be a problem when you sail in a crowded waters.
As CookiesnTequila said, one doesn't need to be on the helm all the time, almost never on long passages. If the wind is too strong, you simply reef more and slow down the boat still remaining on autopilote.
By the way, reefing singlehanded is extremely easy on Catana's, all the lines are coming to the huge winch in the cockpit. In most of the other cats that I've sailed , you need to visit the mast to reef and I find this much more dangereous than aft helms.
Yes, Catana 50's for some reason are heavier. My 47 is carbon is around 11-12 tons empty.
Nevertheless, the 50 also will be faster than same size FP or Lagoons thanks to slimmer hulls.

Cheers

Yeloya

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by yeloya

The helm position of Catana's have been debated several times on the forum. The only negative I see is the visibility.., the view on the opposite side is impaired and this might be a problem when you sail in a crowded waters.

Don’t get me wrong... I don’t think there is one “right” boat and if a Catana makes them happy, that’s great, but is significant lack of visibility (which is a huge and issue to my mind) really the only negative for you? What about exposure to the elements? Would you really rather be sitting on the sugar scoops in awful weather? What about getting pooped in a storm? In both these cases, you think an aft helm is better than a raised bulkhead helm. Don’t you agree that a full Bimini and clears for bad weather are more easily implemented when higher and in close to the cockpit?

I understand how on a day sail with no boats around, that aft position allows you to feel the wind and have great views of your jib and main, but that’s it. I just don’t understand this talk of it being “ideal” for blue water cruising.

[Sand crab]

I always thought the same as Thalas but Cookies explanation with those great pics changed my thinking. Now I think I could just barely tolerate those helms.

If someone would let me borrow a C50 to try it out for a year or three then I'll get back to you and let you know what I think.

[Thalas]

Here is an actual photo from the obstructed view from the helm of a Catana 53 that I'm talking about. Imagine your autopilot isn't working and you're on watch day or night... you better hope trouble is coming from windward. (yes I'm aware the helm is 2 feet to the right in this photo, but the point still stands solidly)

The second photo is of a Catana 47 dinghy cinched all the way up. Still looks like it would drag like mad in anything but favorable conditions.

I searched and have yet to find clears or any kind of enclosure or weather protection at the helms.

[boom23]

I agree regarding the helm location of the Catana. I like the boat but just don't understand the helm location. In my opinion, it may be ok on a monohull, but not on a catamaran. At the same time, I understand that some people like the Catana helm otherwise the company would go out if business.

Personally, I prefer a protected helm location with great visibility. S. Pacific weather does that to you...