Outside opinions on cats. What would you choose?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen

Well, at least I no longer feel like I'm going to have any second thoughts hopping on a jet to the BVI to go buy a boat.

Bali43cat, I appreciate your input, and yes, the interior/fridge is one of the things that was selling me on the Bali. It's got a great interior setup and the extra space on the foredeck is a huge plus too.

Guess we have different priorities.. for me the topsides are the important bit, its where I put my life on the line.

Boatman, I appreciate you letting me know about your experience as well. I looked at the wharram 38's, and thought about what it'd be like getting bumped off the back of the boat and watching a rather angry ex-wife sail off into the sunset, and thought better of the idea. While I DO like the thought of only having to spend $140K on a NEW boat, I just don't see that one working out terribly well for me.

Moral here is.. don't prat about on the aft trampoline and stay where your supposed to.. at the helm/controls..

Lance, Good thoughts, I've already looked at several of the other brands, FP, Catana, Kelsall, etc. The reason I narrowed it down to the bali/leopard was due to the layouts of the boats, the front lounge areas, helm positions, and airflow through the salon area. Bali with the garage door and opening windows, and the leopard with the front door/rear sliding door. My thought process was that I'd rather have the ability to keep the boat at a comfortable temp with the doors sheltered from a downpour without HAVING to resort to the A/C. It seems to me that both boats have their upsides, and the leopard just lines up with my priorities a little bit better.

Fine for coastal/island hopping in the Caribe and E coast but in the open ocean is another matter.
Personally my definition of 'Blue Water' is not hopping along between the BVI's and Florida.. that's day sailing.
Try climbing up to the flybridge in 6 to 7 metre sea's and 40kt+ winds..

[fxykty]

For anyone considering a crossing of the Pacific, do remember that to get out of the cyclone season you will need to either go north towards the equator (hot and humid, some wind, many squalls and calms, remote and interesting places), or south to New Zealand. The passage from the South Pacific islands to NZ, and the return passage getting back to the islands, are usually documented in vlogs as ‘our most horrible passage ever’. The ARC passage or around the Caribbean do not compare.

Decent sailing capabilities with the wind forward of the beam are a prerequisite for safety and reasonable comfort. Possibly, if your boat is big enough, you can motor. I remember a Sailing Zatara episode where they motored for two days against the trade winds to get to the Lau Group.

Regarding a solid foredeck, it’s not about burying the bows. In larger swells, breaking or not, waves heap above the bows and come crashing down. And of course waves bang on the hulls and blow upwards. I can’t even imagine what that would be like with a solid foredeck, but that said several production cats have minuscule front trampolines, so effectively filling them in as it were is perhaps not that big a deal?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by fxykty

For anyone considering a crossing of the Pacific, do remember that to get out of the cyclone season you will need to either go north towards the equator (hot and humid, some wind, many squalls and calms, remote and interesting places), or south to New Zealand. The passage from the South Pacific islands to NZ, and the return passage getting back to the islands, are usually documented in vlogs as ‘our most horrible passage ever’. The ARC passage or around the Caribbean do not compare.

Decent sailing capabilities with the wind forward of the beam are a prerequisite for safety and reasonable comfort. Possibly, if your boat is big enough, you can motor. I remember a Sailing Zatara episode where they motored for two days against the trade winds to get to the Lau Group.

Regarding a solid foredeck, it’s not about burying the bows. In larger swells, breaking or not, waves heap above the bows and come crashing down. And of course waves bang on the hulls and blow upwards. I can’t even imagine what that would be like with a solid foredeck, but that said several production cats have minuscule front trampolines, so effectively filling them in as it were is perhaps not that big a deal?

NZ and back can be a horrible passage. I disagree that is the worst this must go to the Indian Ocean it was the most uncomfortable crossing I have done. I am routing a friend there at the moment and he has only 15kts of wind but swell patterns from two different directions and breaking 3m wind waves from a third direction crashing over the boat.



Don't think he would swap his boat for one with either a forward cockpit or a fly bridge.

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

NZ and back can be a horrible passage. I disagree that is the worst this must go to the Indian Ocean it was the most uncomfortable crossing I have done. I am routing a friend there at the moment and he has only 15kts of wind but swell patterns from two different directions and breaking 3m wind waves from a third direction crashing over the boat.



Don't think he would swap his boat for one with either a forward cockpit or a fly bridge.

That was our experience of the Indian Ocean as well. Horrible seas from different directions. Big hits on the beam with wind from astern. We had 20-30 knots for over a week with occasional bouts of 40+. Seemed like we had our own personal weather system that went wherever we went. Horrible.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Totally agree.


Both these boats are designed for charter.

BVI - Things that are important. Nice flybridge or forward cockpit for sunbathing. 3 or 4 equally appointed cabins with heads and showers. Will the generator run the AC all night when on a mooring? Can I motor to the next marina if the wind is against me? Are there enough fridges to cope with the demand for cocktails? Is the BBQ big enough? How easy is it to get on and off the stern into the dinghy?

RTW - Things that are important. Can I single hand this while my partner is ill or asleep? Can I run all the systems completely autonomously? How will I feel burying the bow in 8m waves? How safe will I feel at the stern surfing down 8m waves? How will I reef when it's blowing 40kts . . . down wind? Do I really need 4 heads and showers?

Crew across an ocean or get some offshore experience in some interesting weather before you make a decision to sail round the world in one of these.

This comment seems to be ofthe common out of date variety. Unless you have taken both boats offshore it is irrelevant what one thinks. Bias is sadly based upon past and has limited value toward the future if that future includes different variables such as the boat in question.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

This comment seems to be ofthe common out of date variety. Unless you have taken both boats offshore it is irrelevant what one thinks. Bias is sadly based upon past and has limited value toward the future if that future includes different variables such as the boat in question.

I have to totally disagree.

The conditions that can be encountered, I have personally experienced, offshore and in deep ocean would leave both these boats severely compromised.

I am not saying that you cannot cross oceans in these boats, courageous or inexperienced sailors complete voyages of greatness in much lesser craft.

The question here is given the option would you "choose" to do so.

The resounding answer from forum members is that these particular vessels are best suited to coastal cruising and there are better choices. Not just preferences but better suited and more practical for RTW.

I would be most interested to know what future variables you refer to in your comment and to know what experiences at sea would seem to you to be outdated.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I have to totally disagree.

The conditions that can be encountered, I have personally experienced, offshore and in deep ocean would leave both these boats severely compromised.

I am not saying that you cannot cross oceans in these boats, courageous or inexperienced sailors complete voyages of greatness in much lesser craft.

The question here is given the option would you "choose" to do so.

The resounding answer from forum members is that these particular vessels are best suited to coastal cruising and there are better choices. Not just preferences but better suited and more practical for RTW.

I would be most interested to know what future variables you refer to in your comment and to know what experiences at sea would seem to you to be outdated.

Kind of assumed you might disagree with my questioning of your post. Not shocking but also no more correct in its assertions.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

Kind of assumed you might disagree with my questioning of your post. Not shocking but also no more correct in its assertions.

I would be most interested to know what future variables you refer to in your comment and to know what experiences at sea would seem to you to be outdated.

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen

I'm eyeballing two cats, and I'm having a tough time choosing between the two.

One's a Bali 4.3, the other is a Leopard 45. Both are evenly optioned in the 400K range, owners versions, and appear to be in the same condition. As far as I can tell, the main difference is the boat design itself. Bali, with the flybridge/lounge, solid foredeck, house style fridge, the large "garage door" style back end, and the Leopard with the walk-through lounge, front seating area, trampolines, 2ft in length, and protected helm position.

If you were considering either boat as a live-aboard, with the eventual goal of sailing around the world, which would you choose and why?

I get the distinct impression this will be your first boat. If you intend to live aboard and sail around the world I highly recommend you don't think of your first boat as your last boat, and go through multiple boats in order to find the one that best suits you. Which may not even be a catamaran. Or a sailboat for that matter!

I know there are a lot of YouTube sailors who buy a boat, then learn how to operate it, and then journey around the world, seemingly completely successfully. But I venture there are ten times as many people who have the same idea and have a terrible time. You just don't know about them because they don't publish their miserable life on YouTube.

[Morndenkainen]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

I get the distinct impression this will be your first boat. If you intend to live aboard and sail around the world I highly recommend you don't think of your first boat as your last boat, and go through multiple boats in order to find the one that best suits you. Which may not even be a catamaran. Or a sailboat for that matter!

Not going to lie, it is going to be my first sailing cat, but not my first boat. I don't plan on it being my last boat, but I do plan on living on it for at least the next 4-5 years. To that end, I was weighing the pros/cons of these two particular types of boats after having. Now, I'm at the point where I've got my vaccine, finances, paperwork, and all the other stuff in order. In a week, will be ready to book my flight to the BVI, look at some boats buy one, and hightail it to the Chesapeake for the hurricane season. Even if I have to burn a couple hundred gallons of fuel.

I've decided on the leopard because yes, I will on occasion, make a long ocean passage. I fully intend to sail from Panama to Fiji/Tonga and on from there around year 3, and listening to the back "door" of the Bali rattle for 2-3 weeks and the potential for hydraulics to break/leak and waves slamming, just doesn't appeal to me. Will the leopard have issues? Yes. However I feel they'll be more in line with what I'm comfortable tolerating.

[CatNewBee]

Good choice, congrats and enjoy!

[Enza]

For the price of a fully outfitted new Leopard 45 or Bali 43, wouldn't you be better off to consider a Knysna 500?

[Morndenkainen]

If I wanted to wait 2 years to have one built? Sure, I probably would be better off buying something like the Knysna. But I found what I felt was a good opportunity and ended up putting in an offer of $370k on a leopard 48, and it was accepted. That's $29K less than the Bali 4.3 I was looking at. Is there a reason they let it go that cheap? Of course there is. Thing is, it's stuff I can deal with or have a couple of the guys that work for me deal with.

Now, I figure I get to spend that $29K on a 24v conversion, LI batteries, a solar arch/panels and a watermaker. And I get the bigger showers too. Will the extra $29K cover it all? Who knows. But, it's extra money I don't have to spend on the Bali or the 45 I was looking at..

Now, I just have to hope the BVI can keep it together until september when I close on the boat. Apparently some asshat with covid went to 5 titty bars and infected a lot of people.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen

If I wanted to wait 2 years to have one built? Sure, I probably would be better off buying something like the Knysna. But I found what I felt was a good opportunity and ended up putting in an offer of $370k on a leopard 48, and it was accepted. That's $29K less than the Bali 4.3 I was looking at. Is there a reason they let it go that cheap? Of course there is. Thing is, it's stuff I can deal with or have a couple of the guys that work for me deal with.



Now, I figure I get to spend that $29K on a 24v conversion, LI batteries, a solar arch/panels and a watermaker. And I get the bigger showers too. Will the extra $29K cover it all? Who knows. But, it's extra money I don't have to spend on the Bali or the 45 I was looking at..



Now, I just have to hope the BVI can keep it together until september when I close on the boat. Apparently some asshat with covid went to 5 titty bars and infected a lot of people.

Why a 24V conversion? If the boat is originally 12V then all the equipment including a big consumer like the windlass will need a 12V circuit. What will you run on 24V?

Regarding the money, if you’re planning a LFP conversion that will likely consume the majority of that amount. When we did our LFP conversion most of the wiring needed replacing to safely handle the higher current. In addition to LFP-specific components we also had dated charger, inverter and battery monitor that we replaced. YMMV

A decent watermaker will be a fair amount as well, while the solar panels will be the least of the cost of a good arch (if not there already) and however many solar regulators you need.

[Mook1e]

Originally Posted by Morndenkainen

If I wanted to wait 2 years to have one built? Sure, I probably would be better off buying something like the Knysna. But I found what I felt was a good opportunity and ended up putting in an offer of $370k on a leopard 48, and it was accepted. That's $29K less than the Bali 4.3 I was looking at. Is there a reason they let it go that cheap? Of course there is. Thing is, it's stuff I can deal with or have a couple of the guys that work for me deal with.

Now, I figure I get to spend that $29K on a 24v conversion, LI batteries, a solar arch/panels and a watermaker. And I get the bigger showers too. Will the extra $29K cover it all? Who knows. But, it's extra money I don't have to spend on the Bali or the 45 I was looking at..

Now, I just have to hope the BVI can keep it together until september when I close on the boat. Apparently some asshat with covid went to 5 titty bars and infected a lot of people.

Awesome. Sounds like a couple of boats I've been looking into. CAT-MON-DU, a Leopard 48 in the BVI and Y-NOT, a Bali 4.3 in Florida.
We're not quite ready to buy right now, though.
I would be interested in your refit experience, and good luck with the purchase in the BVI.