Performance 50-55' Cats: Outremer vs Catana vs Swiss Catamaran

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

It is a wonder I ever get back alive.

So, Mr. BigBeakie, why couldn't you see 360 when helming my boat model, like everyone else can?

Dave

If you can see the opposite bow quarter from the lee helm, that is great. If you have a good set of wet weather gear, even better

[Jim Cate]

As a inexperienced observer, I find it interesting that in this and other similar threads, the folks who deride the Catana style helm position don't seem to have sailed much on them, while the folks who actually own and use them seem to like them.

Isn't that odd?

Jim

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

As a inexperienced observer, I find it interesting that in this and other similar threads, the folks who deride the Catana style helm position don't seem to have sailed much on them, while the folks who actually own and use them seem to like them.

Isn't that odd?

Jim

Without having sailed on one Jim I really believe that good sun protection is one of the most important aspects for a cruising liveaboard in the Pacific. Again its all personal likes and dislikes. Against that the engineering aspects of the Catana steering mechanisms are excellent.

[colemj]

I have sailed them. They aren't my preference for reasons that downunder touches on, but I would trade boats with 2hulls in a heartbeat. They certainly wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me.

Similarly, there are people who deride sail drives and Volvo engines without seeming to have much experience with them, while those that own them shake their heads.

Mark

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by downunder

Without having sailed on one Jim I really believe that good sun protection is one of the most important aspects for a cruising liveaboard in the Pacific. Again its all personal likes and dislikes. Against that the engineering aspects of the Catana steering mechanisms are excellent.

Sun protection is obviously important in most cruising areas. But with the AP doing the steering 95% of the time, it's just not often an issue with aft helms.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Sun protection is obviously important in most cruising areas. But with the AP doing the steering 95% of the time, it's just not often an issue with aft helms.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Agreed.

We have chosen to not fit a Bimini on our monohull aft cockpit yacht. We live aboard and cruise full time. We are in the tropics much of the year.

We do have a cockpit awning that we use at anchor, and a small 'underway awning" that we occasionally fit at sea. But for the most part, when on passage we sit under the dodger whilst the autopilot drives the boat.

Perhaps the above explains my take on the Catana style helms. Again, I do not claim experience in these boats... I was commenting on the difference in perception between folks who do have experience and t hose who pontificate from their armchairs.

Cheers,

Jim

[Mirage Gecko]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Sun protection is obviously important in most cruising areas. But with the AP doing the steering 95% of the time, it's just not often an issue with aft helms.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Not firing a shot here but I see this comment often in the defence of open helms.
Fully agree about the AP but I for one like to keep my eye on where we are going and gauges for both motors and sailing(although being a cat mostly motoring).With a covered helm area I can do this all day and in comfort and still be able to interreact with whats happening in the cockpit or saloon.Plus no need to wear wet weather gear in 30C plus temps if rain squalls are about.
With the rear helm that you are not seated at do you need to have extra instrumentation and AP control away from the helm and where actually do you sit to see what's happening in front of you or do you need to be up and down every minute or so.
Obviously personal choice but the benefits of enclosed are clear but while there must be benefits to open they are not so clear to me but happy to be enlightened.
Maybe this covered area also has a fair bit to do with your country of origin.When I was a kid in Australia we baked in the sun and even put oil on to help with our cooking now we are encouraged to enjoy the outdoors but cover up and use plenty of sunscreen whereas I don't think some other countries are as proactive with this message.


Chris

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko

Not firing a shot here but I see this comment often in the defence of open helms.
Fully agree about the AP but I for one like to keep my eye on where we are going and gauges for both motors and sailing(although being a cat mostly motoring).With a covered helm area I can do this all day and in comfort and still be able to interreact with whats happening in the cockpit or saloon.Plus no need to wear wet weather gear in 30C plus temps if rain squalls are about.
With the rear helm that you are not seated at do you need to have extra instrumentation and AP control away from the helm and where actually do you sit to see what's happening in front of you or do you need to be up and down every minute or so.
Obviously personal choice but the benefits of enclosed are clear but while there must be benefits to open they are not so clear to me but happy to be enlightened.
Maybe this covered area also has a fair bit to do with your country of origin.When I was a kid in Australia we baked in the sun and even put oil on to help with our cooking now we are encouraged to enjoy the outdoors but cover up and use plenty of sunscreen whereas I don't think some other countries are as proactive with this message.


Chris

Yep Chris your touching on watchkeeping vs actual helming - a differentiation often missed it seems by the ones who have never/rarely sailed with aft helms but like to deride them nonetheless for some reason. Maybe because they are used to doing both from the same spot?

We watchkeep from saloon, cockpit and helms depending on conditions or preferences, even from the tramp on nice days if motoring or downwind under spinny

We have instrument repeaters on the bulkhead and at the navstation but often use the tablet and smart pilot as well. Views forward from cockpit are around either bulkhead from reclining seating or over the bulkhead/ between the bimini.

[Mirage Gecko]

Originally Posted by Barra

Yep Chris your touching on watchkeeping vs actual helming - a differentiation often missed it seems by the ones who have never/rarely sailed with aft helms but like to deride them nonetheless for some reason. Maybe because they are used to doing both from the same spot?

We watchkeep from saloon, cockpit and helms depending on conditions or preferences, even from the tramp on nice days if motoring or downwind under spinny

We have instrument repeaters on the bulkhead and at the navstation but often use the tablet and smart pilot as well. Views forward from cockpit are around either bulkhead from reclining seating or over the bulkhead/ between the bimini.

First to admit very limited experience with aft helms.I do understand the differentiation though and I am certainly used to and like doing both from the same spot although I can if I wish watch keep from the same other spots as an open helmed boat and do on occasion.
No derision intended from me simply looking at the reasons why you would want an open helm area

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko

First to admit very limited experience with aft helms.I do understand the differentiation though and I am certainly used to and like doing both from the same spot although I can if I wish watch keep from the same other spots as an open helmed boat and do on occasion.
No derision intended from me simply looking at the reasons why you would want an open helm area

Yep the point is you arent tied to the helm to watchkeep which clearly you get but for some reason some dont. This is the main negative that the anti aft helm brigade keep going to and its simply not real 95% of the time.

The advantages of dual aft helms are well documented - try a search on here and you will see many discussions all much the same as Jim mentioned

Obviously Ive made my choice based on my preferences, and to me the pluses over other types are -

1. Simply the best spot to helm from when sailing - full sail and wave visibility from each helm and the ability to change sides for tacks, boat motion excellent from here under sail especially to wind.

2.More direct linkage to rudders - no hydaulics, rudder feedback and "feel" when sailing, less chance of breakages, dual redundancy for safety etc

3. Easier shorthanded docking. Im now practiced enough to med moor solo in tight spots and Ive seen the same done on a 50 foot Catana - try that with any other design.

4.More cockpit room vs bulkhead helms or no need for raised booms added mast height and extra windage of flybridge helms

If your going to motor 100% of the time like that other thread then ill be the first to admit dual aft helms have no place

[admiralslater]

When we were looking for a larger cat the 431 was at the top of my list and I had the usual questions about the helm. What really surprised me was just how much more open the cockpit can be with the out board helm. We did not buy one, but the helm position was not an issue.
David

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Barra

Yep the point is you arent tied to the helm to watchkeep which clearly you get but for some reason some dont. This is the main negative that the anti aft helm brigade keep going to and its simply not real 95% of the time.

The advantages of dual aft helms are well documented - try a search on here and you will see many discussions all much the same as Jim mentioned

Obviously Ive made my choice based on my preferences, and to me the pluses over other types are -

1. Simply the best spot to helm from when sailing - full sail and wave visibility from each helm and the ability to change sides for tacks, boat motion excellent from here under sail especially to wind.

2.More direct linkage to rudders - no hydaulics, rudder feedback and "feel" when sailing, less chance of breakages, dual redundancy for safety etc

3. Easier shorthanded docking. Im now practiced enough to med moor solo in tight spots and Ive seen the same done on a 50 foot Catana - try that with any other design.

4.More cockpit room vs bulkhead helms or no need for raised booms added mast height and extra windage of flybridge helms

If your going to motor 100% of the time like that other thread then ill be the first to admit dual aft helms have no place

Not sure about other Seawind models but I can speak to mine. The two steering stations are protected by what I will call a dodger which is somewhat custom made for my boat, but in a design that would be easy to duplicate. There are flaps just above my head at both steering stations that can be opened and secured with velcro allowing full view of the main sail. I can also easily move from sitting on top of the engine wells where the steering station is to sitting atop one of the hulls with my upper body in the wind/sun (I find feeling the wind can be helpful in steering the boat and trimming the sails). I also have a dock box I use to store dive gear in the cockpit/saloon that I can somewhat move around and I often put it in the center of the cockpit and sit on it to keep out of the sun on certain points of sail and sun orientation when using the AP. It is literally one step to a steering station, and all out of the weather. I find the visibility on my Seawind as good as any cat I have seen with a hardtop. + for Seawind type layout.

I do understand the advantage of direct linkage to the rudders, + for dual aft helms.

I have never been comfortable docking in tight spots, but the PO was amazing in what he did when we took the boat to the haulout for the survey. I am calling that a push.

I really like the combined cockpit/saloon layout the Seawind has, better than a bulkhead between the cockpit and saloon. There is a huge open area. + for Seawind type layout.

I have to point out what I call a Seawind type layout is shared by some other boats and Seawind may not have been the first, or the last, to use it.

Just as an aside I met a guy with a Catana at BKH and we became friends and sailed on each others boats. Bottom line is we both agreed the Seawind was a more open boat that would most likely be more comfortable in the Bahamas/tropics while the Catana was a better high lat boat with more protected space in cooler weather.

Horses for courses.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

, while the folks who actually own and use them seem to like them.

Isn't that odd?

Jim

Not really jim, halo type effect, as in owners of Widget A are keen to support the design features of Widget A, to do other than so would be to admit they bought the wrong widget.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Factor

Not really jim, halo type effect, as in owners of Widget A are keen to support the design features of Widget A, to do other than so would be to admit they bought the wrong widget.

Factor has a point here.

Open invitation: anybody who wants to try out my "widgets" to see for yerself just say so. You be de judge to see whether you like widgets. You just have to wait for me to finish my refit (maybe June 2016) and show up where I'm at. Disclaimer: I cannot guarantee snotty weather.

Dave

[colemj]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

You just have to wait for me to finish my refit (maybe June)

Geez Dave, I had you figured for a much more experienced guy. A refit is NEVER finished...

Mark