Performance of charter cats?

[apexio]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

We started off with good breeze that reduced over the few hours of sailing.

We simply sailed away from the cat. We out pointed and were faster. His leeway was terrible. He may well have been able to point high but the leeway was out of this world. This is a boat with mini keels, a tall rig and laminate sails. He through the towel in and put his engine on.
The second race with the FP was similar. So much leeway that sailing in 10/12 kts true, his performance to windward was woeful.

Of course you would, given the low wind speed. Cats have a lot of drag above and below the waterline so leeway comes into play more and more the lower the windspeed.

Cruising full time now for 3 years on a FP Belize (feathering prop, dacron sails, large cruising load) - 10 knots true is terrible wind for going upwind (on a cruising cat) in a seaway - it could be 'okay' in flat water but still very slow. The leeway increases dramatically as the wind falls under 15 true.

Ideal wind conditions would be 20kts true. I would sail at 7 to 9 knots - 40 AWA, 25kts AWS, full main and full 130% genoa. Charted tacking angle would be around 110 in an ocean swell, or as high as 90 degrees in flat water with no current. If the wind is >25 but <30kts, one reef in both sails, speed stays the same or possibly better.

At 25-27 AWS, 40AWA, 8kts, on the ocean, the cockpit will be perfectly dry with the odd bit of spray every half hour or so. Sometimes a steep wave will slow the boat to 4 knots for 10-15 seconds and a little water will run down the side of the boat (a few gallons).

Cracking off to 60-90 AWA the cockpit can be a bit wetter where you might have to hide inside from the odd wave if you want to stay 100% dry. Same wind, boat speed will be 8 to 9+ knots with main and genoa 1 reef each or 9-10+ with both full. 20-25 AWS is pretty much ideal for going fast on my boat (I dont have a gennaker or code 0).

It's very frustrating to sail upwind in less than 15 knots - it takes forever to make miles due to huge tacking angle (leeway) and slow sailing. I've been considering a large flat-cut screecher for a long time, but so far, it is easier to fire up one engine at 50% throttle and motor sail pretty efficiently.

[Wandering1]

I would love to see a plot of off your chartplotter of 90 degrees tacking angle in ocean conditions. My experience is a little different.
With the high topside windage of a cat and the small keel the leeway always ends up being way more than it feels when sailing to weather.
We once sailing from the West side of Guadeloupe to the Saints, hard on the wind and current. We managed to lay the course without a single tack. The PDQ cat who was sailing close by, tacked numerous times to end up just behind us as we arrived.
Don't get me wrong, I like cats. I have owned two cruising cats, but I am realistic with their sailing performance to weather. My last cat had laminate sails and a taller than standard rig. It had low freeboard and went to weather as well as could be expected, but it was no match for a deep draught monohull

[Peeew]

There is a charter company in the Bahamas that has a fleet of Seawind cats. These are likely better to sail.
But also these cats don’t sail like monos. There are some tricks to getting any performance out of them. But now you really know the secret. Cruising cats are really at their best when at anchor.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

I would love to see a plot of off your chartplotter of 90 degrees tacking angle in ocean conditions. My experience is a little different.
With the high topside windage of a cat and the small keel the leeway always ends up being way more than it feels when sailing to weather.
We once sailing from the West side of Guadeloupe to the Saints, hard on the wind and current. We managed to lay the course without a single tack. The PDQ cat who was sailing close by, tacked numerous times to end up just behind us as we arrived.
Don't get me wrong, I like cats. I have owned two cruising cats, but I am realistic with their sailing performance to weather. My last cat had laminate sails and a taller than standard rig. It had low freeboard and went to weather as well as could be expected, but it was no match for a deep draught monohull

What two cats have you owned? Agreed the standard mini keel p charter cat won’t point well, but a modern performance daggerboard cat can point surprisingly well.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by apexio

Cruising full time now for 3 years on a FP Belize (feathering prop, dacron sails, large cruising load) - 10 knots true is terrible wind for going upwind (on a cruising cat) in a seaway - it could be 'okay' in flat water but still very slow. The leeway increases dramatically as the wind falls under 15 true.

Interestingly, I find pretty much the opposite on my Mumby, she loves light air upwind. Anything 10 knots TWS or more and we're sailing with great VMG. 15 knots TWS is the sweet spot, where we will average at least 8.5 knots at ~32º AWA, tacking through around 100º, with full sail. And this is with some ***** old sails with shape that makes my soul cry . More than 17 knots TWS, now I'm taking a reef, sail shape suffers a bit, sea state is getting worse, I'll need to sail at more like 34º AWA to keep it reliable on the AP.

I'd say tacking angle stays fairly consistent across the wind range. Would you say the same smj?

It's a good comparison to the mini keel production cats, seeing as this isn't a low volume racer. This a fully loaded, full time live aboard boat with plenty of volume and plenty of toys. The boards are easy to handle, being pulled up or down with one hand.

[Wandering1]

You don't mention sea state. In flat water all boats perform better. We sail in the Caribbean. Between the islands, we have the full fetch of 3000nm of Atlantic swell and wind driven waves. The see state is typically 6 or 7 feet on the more gentle days with a 7s interval. In these conditions, in my experience, only daggerboard cats have any windward performance. Mini keel cats simply don't have enough grip on the water and they are pushed down wind by the waves. The high freeboard of two hulls and often high level helm positions gives massive windage.
Compare the hydrodynamic shape of such a cat to a deep keep cruising monohull with vastly reduced windage and there is no comparison.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by apexio

Of course you would, given the low wind speed. Cats have a lot of drag above and below the waterline so leeway comes into play more and more the lower the windspeed.
Cruising full time now for 3 years on a FP Belize (feathering prop, dacron sails, large cruising load) - 10 knots true is terrible wind for going upwind (on a cruising cat)

ON SOME CRUISING CATS

It's very frustrating to sail upwind in less than 15 knots

-(IN MOST OF THE BOATS FROM THE BIG THREE


People should not confuse one boat with all Cats. I sailed the Med on a Cat last year that would happily do 11 knots in 10 knots of wind beam reaching and do amazingly well upwind making VMGS in the 6s.

Attached is an article that explains it reasonably well

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Factor

ON SOME CRUISING CATS

-(IN MOST OF THE BOATS FROM THE BIG THREE


People should not confuse one boat with all Cats. I sailed the Med on a Cat last year that would happily do 11 knots in 10 knots of wind beam reaching and do amazingly well upwind making VMGS in the 6s.

Attached is an article that explains it reasonably well

And where did you charter this magic cat from?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

And where did you charter this magic cat from?

I didn't charter it, I was engaged to assist the owner in moving it around the MED

[donradcliffe]

Silly me. I thought the thread was devoted to the performance of charter cats.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Silly me. I thought the thread was devoted to the performance of charter cats.

I can see how you made that mistake. The post I responded to said (in part).

Of course you would, given the low wind speed. Cats have a lot of drag above and below the waterline so leeway comes into play more and more the lower the windspeed.

I was merely pointing out that statements like the one above that make global assumptions about the performance of cats are just wrong.

Also any Cat can be a charter cat, Mumby's for example are in charter across SE Asia particularly, Seawinds are very much the staple of the charter fleets in Australia, Hell, I know of at least one Schionning in charter.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by Factor

I can see how you made that mistake. The post I responded to said (in part). I was merely pointing out that statements like the one above that make global assumptions about the performance of cats are just wrong.

Also any Cat can be a charter cat, Mumby's for example are in charter across SE Asia particularly, Seawinds are very much the staple of the charter fleets in Australia, Hell, I know of at least one Schionning in charter.

Are you going to tell us what this magical catamaran was that is so fast in light winds to windward?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Are you going to tell us what this magical catamaran was that is so fast in light winds to windward?

Sure - Outremer I was on two in fact over the few months, a 4X and a 55

And I note JUST MURPHs comments about his Mumbey

Interestingly, I find pretty much the opposite on my Mumby, she loves light air upwind. Anything 10 knots TWS or more and we're sailing with great VMG. 15 knots TWS is the sweet spot, where we will average at least 8.5 knots at ~32º AWA, tacking through around 100º, with full sail. And this is with some ***** old sails with shape that makes my soul cry . More than 17 knots TWS, now I'm taking a reef, sail shape suffers a bit, sea state is getting worse, I'll need to sail at more like 34º AWA to keep it reliable on the AP.

I'd say tacking angle stays fairly consistent across the wind range. Would you say the same smj?

It's a good comparison to the mini keel production cats, seeing as this isn't a low volume racer. This a fully loaded, full time live aboard boat with plenty of volume and plenty of toys. The boards are easy to handle, being pulled up or down with one hand.

The point is all boats dont have to be like the Big 3. Many aren't. Sadly some people think that FP/Lagoon/Leopard are what sailing cats are, they dont have to be.

[donradcliffe]

[QUOTE=Factor;3856695]Sure - Outremer I was on two in fact over the few months, a 4X and a 55

/QUOTE]

Sorry, but the Outremer 55 can't make 6 knots VMG to weather. Watch the Yachting World review video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC3aZWYtXUw

After telling us about the 1.5 million euro boat with the carbon rotating mast, carbon sails, high tech rigging, the reviewer shows us how the boat is higher and faster than a Lagoon 55. We then get to watch the numbers in upwind VMG mode in 16 knots of breeze with a genoa and inhaulers..

AWA 40-41
TWA 68-70
SOG 9-10
TWS 16

My spreadsheet says the VMG is 4.3, which slips to 4.1 if you add in a realistic 3 degrees of leeway.
.

[fxykty]

[QUOTE=donradcliffe;3856803]

Originally Posted by Factor

Sure - Outremer I was on two in fact over the few months, a 4X and a 55

/QUOTE]

Sorry, but the Outremer 55 can't make 6 knots VMG to weather. Watch the Yachting World review video

After telling us about the 1.5 million euro boat with the carbon rotating mast, carbon sails, high tech rigging, the reviewer shows us how the boat is higher and faster than a Lagoon 55. We then get to watch the numbers in upwind VMG mode in 16 knots of breeze with a genoa and inhaulers..

AWA 40-41
TWA 68-70
SOG 9-10
TWS 16

My spreadsheet says the VMG is 4.3, which slips to 4.1 if you add in a realistic 3 degrees of leeway.
.

Hmmm, 40-41*AWA is not upwind VMG mode in any world I know of, so that’s weird. But using a full main and full genoa in 16 kts TWS seems overpowered to me, though the new(ish) O55 is a rather heavy boat that does require a lot of power to perform. But those numbers don’t make sense to me.