Performance of charter cats?

[Wandering1]

[QUOTE=donradcliffe;3856803]

Originally Posted by Factor

Sure - Outremer I was on two in fact over the few months, a 4X and a 55

/QUOTE]

Sorry, but the Outremer 55 can't make 6 knots VMG to weather. Watch the Yachting World review video

After telling us about the 1.5 million euro boat with the carbon rotating mast, carbon sails, high tech rigging, the reviewer shows us how the boat is higher and faster than a Lagoon 55. We then get to watch the numbers in upwind VMG mode in 16 knots of breeze with a genoa and inhaulers..

AWA 40-41
TWA 68-70
SOG 9-10
TWS 16

My spreadsheet says the VMG is 4.3, which slips to 4.1 if you add in a realistic 3 degrees of leeway.
.

Nice to see some real figures. So much BS sprouted on this thread. I couldnt stop laughing when somebody quoted their Bali AWA. We see the reality of cruising cat performance on a regular basis here in the Caribbean. They never fail to disappoint up wind. I say this as an ex owner of two cruising cats who went back to the dark side. We have cruised a bluewater deep draught mono for the last 12 years

[JustMurph]

I wouldn't take the numbers you see in that video as gospel. Fxy is quite right, that ain't an upwind pointing mode in a dagger board cat. It'll sail well higher with a far better VMG than that.

In my above example of 8.5 knots boat speed in 15 knots TWS, tacking through 100º, we're doing a VMG of 5.5. Again, with shitty old sails. The Mumby boards aren't that big either. There's no reason the Outremer's wouldn't perform similarly, or better.

[Tupaia]

[QUOTE=donradcliffe;3856803]

Originally Posted by Factor

Sure - Outremer I was on two in fact over the few months, a 4X and a 55

/QUOTE]

Sorry, but the Outremer 55 can't make 6 knots VMG to weather. Watch the Yachting World review video

After telling us about the 1.5 million euro boat with the carbon rotating mast, carbon sails, high tech rigging, the reviewer shows us how the boat is higher and faster than a Lagoon 55. We then get to watch the numbers in upwind VMG mode in 16 knots of breeze with a genoa and inhaulers..

AWA 40-41
TWA 68-70
SOG 9-10
TWS 16

My spreadsheet says the VMG is 4.3, which slips to 4.1 if you add in a realistic 3 degrees of leeway.
.

And....



The issue here, especially in very light wind, is the fact that the faster you go relative to the TWS the more you pull the apparent wind forward and the apparent wind angle will be the limiting factor. AKA ice boats. Ignoring the poor aerodynamic windage factors most "charter" cats also have too large a sheeting angle to achieve the required AWA. Even the OT55 mentioned was using inhaulers. Why?? I agree that an AWA of 40-41 degrees is poor if actually trying to go to windward and it should be possible to achieve sub 30 degrees AWA on a performance cat. Perhaps they were going in the direction they wanted to go rather than point as high as they could.


My own boat will do wind speed 7 knots by pulling the AWA down to 35 degrees, which is right on the limit for my screecher. I'm guessing the VMG is only about 2 Knots which is irrelevant if I am going where I want to go. (sadly not often the case).



The give away is in the area for which they are designed "charter" in which they are hugely successful. "Charter" cats put their engines on to go to windward given the next anchorage will probably be within a few miles so do not really "need" to be able to sail well to windward. Horses for courses.


It is also unfair to compare "production" cats to performance monos. Very very few monohull cruisers come anywhere close to being high performance.

[arsenelupiga]

we always sail upwind back from Lizard typically into 20-30 kn & counter current. Sailed together with benetau 50 and Outremer 55 in separate occasions. I say these two boats perform rougly the same upwind. Both were ~ 40 % faster VMG. This is bit exxageration as there is typically 1 kn current against. So if we made 2.5kn VMG upwind they did 3.5kn. Meaning our VMG was 2.5kn + 1 kn of current is 3.5kn. And they made 3.5kn + 1 = 4.5kn VMG. True difference in VMG is then 28% which is roughly about expected. Yeah, these outremers are beasts. We were doing 7 kn but these guys averaging 12 kn in reaching. We had 3rd reef they had first reef. So yeah bit of risk tolerance difference

[donradcliffe]

I take it back. Found another Outremer 55 video, where they are sailing in gale force winds from the beach, so relatively small sea state. Upwind with white sails, a single reef and staysail they got it up to 8.9 knots at a TWA of 49 and TWS 37. That's VMG in the high 5's, but they were pushing it very hard and the crew was barfing in the saloon. I hear one of them saying "can we reef?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17WeuCJTwDU

Questions for Factor--are the Ikea sharp edges and lack of handholds down below a problem in a blow?

Is the draft really 4.4 meters and what is the minimum draft--how far do the rudders go down?

Don't get me wrong. Every boat is a compromise, and if you gave me one I would keep it.

[Longy]

Originally Posted by gsuescum

75 degs and you’re turning on a engine? I am sure you did deliver a few cats but that comment made me doubt it for a second.

It is tiring to hear sailors making claims about boats they are not very familiar with.

I’m always easily going up to 45 degs and making ~ 1/2 true wind speed. You can push it higher but you start to lose way. We’ve owned a Privilege, a Mainecat and now a Nautitech. It’s been our experience on all of them. On our Catalina monohull (which we loved) we were able to get to 30 deg but were slow.

I’d posts pics of my instruments at these heading but there are endless examples already out there of cats pointing well.

those numbers would be AWA, as opposed to TWA

[lestersails]

Ended up with a Bali Catspace for our charter. It was a dog. It was tough to point higher than 45 and tacking upwind was pretty tedious. It was just a year old so I don't think it was because the sails were too baggy. That dinky self-tacking jib was not contributing much power and it was impossible with that rig to get the twist out of it. In desperation, I rigged a line from one bow cleat through the clew ring of the jib then to the other bow cleat and back to the main winch to put some downward force on the clew which helped.
That being said, my crew loved the space. As many have said, every boat is a compromise and this one optimizes comfort. Indeed my crew said they thought this boat performed fantastically when anchored!

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by HuffinPuff

It's difficult to say as I am point the boat along a path and its following it just fine. I really didn't look to see what the heading was on the map versus what my heading was. Will have to take a look at it next time I sail.

Just tack. Once you have tacked you will be able to see your tacking angle on the plotter. In my experience of cats the tacking angle tells the true story. Poining angle means nothing as leeway of cats without dagger boards is huge

[Bullshooter]

Is it just me, or did the line handling, or rather the huge pile of ropes laying on the deck at the helm seem sloppy? I would not leave that much line lying around even in much less challenging situations for several reasons, such as the potential for the end of a line to end up overboard or trip someone...

(Referring to the video in post # 170)

[gsuescum]

Originally Posted by Longy

those numbers would be AWA, as opposed to TWA

Let me explain more clearly. We can easily get up to 45deg AWA and do 1/2 of TWS.

I’m obsessed with TWS much more than AWS because of a boat’s ability “to make its own wind.” To me it’s more of an indicator of how well your boat sails and how well you sail her.

My boat is not a performance cat but she’s also not a charter cat so maybe shouldn’t be part of this conversation.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by gsuescum

Let me explain more clearly. We can easily get up to 45deg AWA and do 1/2 of TWS.

I’m obsessed with TWS much more than AWS because of a boat’s ability “to make its own wind.” To me it’s more of an indicator of how well your boat sails and how well you sail her.

My boat is not a performance cat but she’s also not a charter cat so maybe shouldn’t be part of this conversation.

But whats your VMG then?
I have a Lavezzi and at 55degrees VMG is ok but at 45 its much worse VMG and only if i put engine on at 1300RPM for motorsailing with the prop contersteering rotation to leeway i gain 1-1.5kn SOG and VMG is good, its 0.7-1l Diesel per hour and hardly can hear the engine so a nobrainer to use it instead going 55 and also better then 35 degress only motor.

Thats how it is if you have a minikeel cat, doesn't matter if charter or owner. If its 40 or 45 or 55 depends a bit on your rig, Sails and how close you can put genua plus draft of your minikeels but due to VMG its either motorsail then and using prop rotation to countersteer or 55-65 degrees sailing.
Wanna have better daggerboards or winglets....

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Just tack. Once you have tacked you will be able to see your tacking angle on the plotter. In my experience of cats the tacking angle tells the true story. Poining angle means nothing as leeway of cats without dagger boards is huge

The angle at which a boat can point is an indicator of how well a boat sails to windward but the true measure of this is VMG. Set a WP a long way away directly towards the direction of the True Wind. Now sail towards that WP. For a monohull the smallest AWA will "typically" result in the best VMG. This is not always the case on a cat because of the significant speed range a larger AWA will yield a better VMG more often than not better than an equivalent mono. Whereas, a cat with boards will be significantly better because of the lift and reduced leeway provided by the deep daggerboards and the ability to sheet to smaller AWA's as the speed increases becomes all important.

[Longy]

Originally Posted by gsuescum

Let me explain more clearly. We can easily get up to 45deg AWA and do 1/2 of TWS.

I’m obsessed with TWS much more than AWS because of a boat’s ability “to make its own wind.” To me it’s more of an indicator of how well your boat sails and how well you sail her.

My boat is not a performance cat but she’s also not a charter cat so maybe shouldn’t be part of this conversation.

Given this statement / theory" I’m obsessed with TWS much more than AWS because of a boat’s ability “to make its own wind.” To me it’s more of an indicator of how well your boat sails and how well you sail her. "
you should use TWA as well, as you say the A values are altered.
Don't mix them.

Optimising your numbers and trim using AWA as a factor will see you going sideways fast,

for half decent Monos or daggerboard perform. Cats it's useful as their leeway is relatively minimal.

VMG is the only real indicator, being the sum of all (i e. 3) factors above,
good to obsess with that as a racer would, being the end all to he all.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

The angle at which a boat can point is an indicator of how well a boat sails to windward but the true measure of this is VMG. Set a WP a long way away directly towards the direction of the True Wind. Now sail towards that WP. For a monohull the smallest AWA will "typically" result in the best VMG. This is not always the case on a cat because of the significant speed range a larger AWA will yield a better VMG more often than not better than an equivalent mono. Whereas, a cat with boards will be significantly better because of the lift and reduced leeway provided by the deep daggerboards and the ability to sheet to smaller AWA's as the speed increases becomes all important.

Your preaching to the converted.

[gsuescum]

Originally Posted by Longy

Given this statement / theory" I’m obsessed with TWS much more than AWS because of a boat’s ability “to make its own wind.” To me it’s more of an indicator of how well your boat sails and how well you sail her. "
you should use TWA as well, as you say the A values are altered.
Don't mix them.

Optimising your numbers and trim using AWA as a factor will see you going sideways fast,

for half decent Monos or daggerboard perform. Cats it's useful as their leeway is relatively minimal.

VMG is the only real indicator, being the sum of all (i e. 3) factors above,
good to obsess with that as a racer would, being the end all to he all.

I’m not a racer but a cruiser. Next time I go on an upwind passage I’ll gather data to share. I’m currently heading up the Windwards so sea state will likely 1-2 meter seas & 15-20kts wind