Performance of charter cats?

[fxykty]

It’s a fallacy that a cruising performance cat can have better VMG upwind with a wider AWA and more speed, unless you are stripped out for racing. Otherwise, the gain in speed does not overcome the wider angles. TWA gets really wide really fast when speed goes up if the AWA is not kept small - we can go 40* AWA with our screecher in <10 kts TWS and our TWA will be 80-90*, boat speed will be 80-100% TWS.

We routinely sail upwind at 50% TWS in the range 4-20 kts TWS. Our AWA is 32* and the tacking angle is between 90-100*, so a TWA 45-50*. There’s between 3-6* leeway. The only way we could do better than that is to remove 2 tonne of cruising gear and provisions.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It’s a fallacy that a cruising performance cat can have better VMG upwind with a wider AWA and more speed, unless you are stripped out for racing. Otherwise, the gain in speed does not overcome the wider angles. TWA gets really wide really fast when speed goes up if the AWA is not kept small - we can go 40* AWA with our screecher in <10 kts TWS and our TWA will be 80-90*, boat speed will be 80-100% TWS.

We routinely sail upwind at 50% TWS in the range 4-20 kts TWS. Our AWA is 32* and the tacking angle is between 90-100*, so a TWA 45-50*. There’s between 3-6* leeway. The only way we could do better than that is to remove 2 tonne of cruising gear and provisions.

I don't think anyone is saying this, but there will be a "best" point on the polar diagram for each boat (setup, weight, etc) for a given set of wind conditions. What you are describing above is the "best" point for your boat under a specific set of conditions. As you say changing the weight will change the "polar" for those conditions. Bearing off will not improve your VMG because you have already established the "best" point on the polar. Many "charter" cats are often sailed too close to the wind, essentially nearly stalling, where bearing off will achieve a better VMG.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It’s a fallacy that a cruising performance cat can have better VMG upwind with a wider AWA and more speed, unless you are stripped out for racing. Otherwise, the gain in speed does not overcome the wider angles. TWA gets really wide really fast when speed goes up if the AWA is not kept small - we can go 40* AWA with our screecher in <10 kts TWS and our TWA will be 80-90*, boat speed will be 80-100% TWS.

We routinely sail upwind at 50% TWS in the range 4-20 kts TWS. Our AWA is 32* and the tacking angle is between 90-100*, so a TWA 45-50*. There’s between 3-6* leeway. The only way we could do better than that is to remove 2 tonne of cruising gear and provisions.

I *think* when people say they can get a faster VMG by cracking off a bit, they're talking much smaller angles than 40º AWA, which is pretty wide for a performance dagger board cat. More like 33º instead of 30º.

E.g. in mine I can pinch in the high 20s if I need to, but VMG is better around 32-33.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

I *think* when people say they can get a faster VMG by cracking off a bit, they're talking much smaller angles than 40º AWA, which is pretty wide for a performance dagger board cat. More like 33º instead of 30º.

E.g. in mine I can pinch in the high 20s if I need to, but VMG is better around 32-33.

Do you guys sail on a lake? In Caribbean, seas are typically 7ft with a 7s interval. Sailing 33deg is make believe. Ocean sailing is where charter cats suffer badly

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Do you guys sail on a lake? In Caribbean, seas are typically 7ft with a 7s interval. Sailing 33deg is make believe. Ocean sailing is where charter cats suffer badly

Do you only sail on the on the open ocean in 7'+ seas?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Do you guys sail on a lake? In Caribbean, seas are typically 7ft with a 7s interval. Sailing 33deg is make believe. Ocean sailing is where charter cats suffer badly

Wider hulls create much more drag in waves. Narrower hulls don’t create nearly as much drag. So most performance cruising cats can sail the same angles in waves as in flat water. At least, we do.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Do you guys sail on a lake? In Caribbean, seas are typically 7ft with a 7s interval. Sailing 33deg is make believe. Ocean sailing is where charter cats suffer badly

Most "ocean" sailing is off the wind and "charter" cats do very well in such conditions.

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Do you guys sail on a lake? In Caribbean, seas are typically 7ft with a 7s interval. Sailing 33deg is make believe. Ocean sailing is where charter cats suffer badly

You're sailing oceans the wrong direction!

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Most "ocean" sailing is off the wind and "charter" cats do very well in such conditions.

Huh? I find that wind on the ocean comes from all 360 degrees, and my direction covers all 360 degrees. And, Murphy seems to skew "random" just a little bit. I find that most "ocean" sailing is in the forward half of the boat -- if I'm lucky, it's a beam reach. Further aggravated by that fact that AWA is always forward of TWA.



Can you educate me? If I'm going from, say, Port aux Basque to Little Bras D'ors, Nova Scotia, approximately 100 miles at a course of 180, how do you make that "off the wind" instead of "whatever the wind is today?"



Or, my last trip from the Chesapeake to Bermuda was almost entirely close hauled. Again, what did we do wrong? I guess we could have sat and waited for a wind change, but that technique applies to about 100% of all sailing, inshore and offshore.


I've not done it, but the trip from Florida to the eastern Caribbean is, for most, a predominantly upwind trip (the trades are easterly). Are we missing something?


All of these are "ocean" sailing.



Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "most milk run ROW trips are off the wind." For about 95% or more of what almost all sailors do, ocean (and inland) apparent wind direction is a complete random calculation.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "most milk run ROW trips are off the wind." For about 95% or more of what almost all sailors do, ocean (and inland) apparent wind direction is a complete random calculation.

I stand corrected, but I was writing this in the context of "charter" cats. If you are going off piste you are unlikely to have chosen a "charter" cat. It is also the case that the majority of cruising monohulls out there ocean sailing exhibit equally poor sailing performance in all directions.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I stand corrected, but I was writing this in the context of "charter" cats. If you are going off piste you are unlikely to have chosen a "charter" cat. It is also the case that the majority of cruising monohulls out there ocean sailing exhibit equally poor sailing performance in all directions.

I don't disagree that many monohulls are poor upwind as well. Even with a good one, it can get old. When theoretical VMG under sail is barely half of your boat speed (and actual is usually much worse!), it gets temping for even dedicated sailors to motor.


It's the idea that upwind performance isn't a big deal, because most sailing is downwind, that bothers me. It is a Utopian view that can lead to disappointment when the buyer finds that half (or better!) of their travels have the wind forward of the bream. For those very few buyers who actually end up circumnavigating (what, 0.1% or less of all buyers?), upwind performance is less of an issue (but even those sailors may spend some time bouncing between islands, which will have random wind directions).


It's fine to accept that your decision making favors some characteristic (cost, comfort, stability, party space, whatever) over another (upwind performance), but it's not helpful to dismiss it as irrelevant because that won't happen.


Charter cats, for instance, in their target habitat (charter) are almost guaranteed to do as much sailing upwind as down. The average charter goes from Point A to Point A (with intermediate stops), and has about zero ability to wait for a favorable wind direction (especially since most charters are in the trades, where the wind rarely varies).

[CaptainRivet]

I think we can replace charter cats with mass production ones like Lagoons, FP or Leopard.
And here also older ones like eg FP Bahia or my Lavezzi which have smaller hulls,quiete light and more sail area plus double diamond riggs where you get sails closer versus newer ones which have eg only one but wider diamond riig (so you can get genua only close enough to do 55 degrees awa and are undercanvast and have wide hulls.
Then minikeels versus daggerboards cats
So the new laggons or FP or Leopard with wide hulls 55 till 65 degrees awa is limit, older one like mine manage 45 till 55 as limt.
And then you have the performance cruisers with minikeels which make it to high 30s.
And then daggerboard performance ones are typically between high 20 and high 30.

And the performance ones you can make it better or worse with the load you carry but on the more you go down the chain of types above the less the actual load pays a role in changing the polar unless you overload it!

A good way especially for minikeels is to motorsail and use the prop rotation of the opposite hull to reduce leeway and therfore improve VMG significantly, on mine a nobrainer to do above 55 degrees. For that it is good you have 2 opposite turning props so you can do it on both close haul courses. Its what it is.

Curious what it would bring especially on the older, lighter and proper canvased FPs or leopards to add winglets to minikeels how much closer you get and how much leeway is reduced then=improve of VMG.

[Sabado]

We regularly do 35 AWA on our Lagoon 42. We did have custom sails built and have done several modifications to ensure she's in good shape structurally. We've sailed nearly 24,000 NM on this boat and have not had issues with going upwind. We sail to VMG and just don't see the issues being talked about.

That said, we have chartered before and had to struggle with baggy mass produced cheap sails and yes, it was very tempting to just motor through our tacks.

Smashing into 20 knots at 35 AWA on any boat is going to be very uncomfortable and even the "performance" cats are going to slow down.

We're in Panama getting ready to cross the Pacific and are really looking forward to the sail!

[Wandering1]

In between islands in the Caribbean it is pretty much open ocean. 3000nm fetch sees to that

[Wandering1]

You are kidding yourself. Most people cruising the Caribbean complain that they are always going to weather. Current between the islands pushes then downwind so they need to point higher.
If you ever cross the Atlantic West to East you will know that ocean sailing is not all down wind.
In 2005 I did that crossing with wind forward of the beam the whole way to the Azores in a cat.