Performance of charter cats?

[Wandering1]

Sorry but having sailed past these boats on a regular basis, I simply dont buy what you are saying. Pointing angle totally ignores the collosal leeway of Lagoons.

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Sorry but having sailed past these boats on a regular basis, I simply dont buy what you are saying. Pointing angle totally ignores the collosal leeway of Lagoons.

This was reefed with uncomfortable seas.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

You are kidding yourself. Most people cruising the Caribbean complain that they are always going to weather. Current between the islands pushes then downwind so they need to point higher.
If you ever cross the Atlantic West to East you will know that ocean sailing is not all down wind.
In 2005 I did that crossing with wind forward of the beam the whole way to the Azores in a cat.

Yepp thats not a fun trip....thats why you just continue through Panama canal and go West:-)

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Sabado

This was reefed with uncomfortable seas.

Did you calibrate your TWA...means you can do 37 to STB and BB? ...if not i can do 35 too but the other side is 60 means the windinstrument is fooled by main sail by 15 degrees....in eg Orca navigation you can calibrate that and i mine was 12 degrees off.
And if yes the VMG will be horrible...you cannot fake physics...
37 degrees, SOG 6.4 and VMG 6.38 thats what a performance daggerboard cat can reach at best but never a minikeel condo with wide hull like your 42 Lagoon...

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Did you calibrate your TWA...means you can do 37 to STB and BB? ...if not i can do 35 too but the other side is 60 means the windinstrument is fooled my main sail by 15 degrees....
And if yes the VMG will be horrible...you cannot fake physics...

Yes, we have calibrated our wind angles. Our TWD stays very close on each tack. Tack angles would give that issue away pretty quickly. I'll dig out photos from the other tack but I don't really spend a lot of time photographing our instruments. It kind of sounds like you won't believe anything I post that contradicts your belief though.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by Sabado

Yes, we have calibrated our wind angles. Our TWD stays very close on each tack. Tack angles would give that issue away pretty quickly. I'll dig out photos from the other tack but I don't really spend a lot of time photographing our instruments. It kind of sounds like you won't believe anything I post that contradicts your belief though.

Good luck on your upcoming crossing, our friends are right there now too! As long as you are happy with your boats performance that is all that matters! Just out of curiosity, if your Lagoon 42 was in the same conditions as in the photo below (on our way to Panama), what do you think you'd be doing boat speed? (no engines of course!) When we test "sailed" the 42 it was unfortunately on a day like in the picture and there was no sailing, just motor boating : )

[Sabado]

I hesitated to post this because there isn't any context and I can't prove there wasn't an engine on. All I can say for sure is that I can't think of a reason for the photo except to send it to friends bragging.

Regardless, it's a snapshot in time and I can say with 100% confidence that the sea state would have been pretty calm for this.

Excess weather helm is a speed killer for the Lagoons with the aft set mast and small jib. We've found that over sheeting the jib does wonders for rudder angles and, even better, flying a gennaker.

Additionally, folding props and clean hulls are a must.

I hear a lot of talk about how poorly these boats sail but our experience hasn't shown that. We also do very well downwind and low wind sailing. Again, we have done everything we can to improve our sailing ability with this boat. It isn't a Lagoon Charter boat.

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Good luck on your upcoming crossing, our friends are right there now too! As long as you are happy with your boats performance that is all that matters! Just out of curiosity, if your Lagoon 42 was in the same conditions as in the photo below (on our way to Panama), what do you think you'd be doing boat speed? (no engines of course!) When we test "sailed" the 42 it was unfortunately on a day like in the picture and there was no sailing, just motor boating : )

That's great speed! We can't touch that. Here's what we can do in light air.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Good luck on your upcoming crossing, our friends are right there now too! As long as you are happy with your boats performance that is all that matters! Just out of curiosity, if your Lagoon 42 was in the same conditions as in the photo below (on our way to Panama), what do you think you'd be doing boat speed? (no engines of course!) When we test "sailed" the 42 it was unfortunately on a day like in the picture and there was no sailing, just motor boating : )

Agree as long as he is happy, that the key.
These are awesome numbers, what cat do you have?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Sabado

That's great speed! We can't touch that. Here's what we can do in light air.

These are real good numbers for a Lagoon 42....
Its not that don't trust you, mostly when people put some numbers in the range you show on the typical condos its mostly some fake readings of sensors or like no calibration or similar.
Good sails yes but they need the opposite below waterline and there are just minikeel, i think around 140cm darft on the 42.
I wanna believe you as if that laggon 42 can do it my Lavezzi would be able to do same or better. Just how or what do i need to modify...need new sails soon and thought about hydranets...have Flexofold folding props already.
Sailing without engine with acceptable VMG at 40 degrees that would be great, more you dont want anyhow. Going into 20 degress to wind and means mostly into wave is something you wanna avoid as going to dentist...
What sails do you actually have? Hydranet? And who made them?
What other modifications related to sailing: changed /lengthened genua tracks? For sure folding or feathering props?

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

These are real good numbers for a Lagoon 42....
Its not that don't trust you, mostly when people put some numbers in the range you show on the typical condos its mostly some fake readings of sensors or like no calibration or similar.
Good sails yes but they need the opposite below waterline and there are just minikeel, i think around 140cm darft on the 42.
I wanna believe you as if that laggon 42 can do it my Lavezzi would be able to do same or better.
Sailing without engine with acceptable VMG at 40 degrees that would be great, more you dont want anyhow. Going into 20 degress to wind and means mostly into wave is something you wanna avoid as going to dentist...
What sails do you actually have? Hydranet? And who made them?
What other modifications related to sailing: changed /lengthened genua tracks? For sure folding or feathering props?

I have video. Let me see I can post it here.


https://www.svsabado.com/video/

It's a large file so it takes a while to load. Holly isn't here so I can't upload to youtube.


I really have no reason to lie or exaggerate. We post all of our details online for everyone to see.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Agree as long as he is happy, that the key.
These are awesome numbers, what cat do you have?

It's a Balance 526mkII, admittedly it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight, since it's lighter than a Lagoon 42 and has 10' extra waterline. Just no getting around pesky old physics!

The Lagoon 42 is a fine boat and sails as good as anybody really needs, and crazy as this sounds in 2015 when they first launched, I worked up a price on a fully loaded version for $410k, that same boat used sells for the same amount so shame on me for not pulling the trigger then!

I will say though when they say these production cats run nearly as well when the wind is on the stern...here is a pic when we were had a 2 knot current against us and a decent breeze at a decent angle (which we all know is rare, but amazing when the stars align!). While it lasted, we spent 5 hours running between 14-23kts with max true wind speed of 25kts. Code zero, and single reef in the main, but of course it never lasts as long as you would like it to.

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

It's a Balance 526mkII, admittedly it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight, since it's lighter than a Lagoon 42 and has 10' extra waterline. Just no getting around pesky old physics!

The Lagoon 42 is a fine boat and sails as good as anybody really needs, and crazy as this sounds in 2015 when they first launched, I worked up a price on a fully loaded version for $410k, that same boat used sells for the same amount so shame on me for not pulling the trigger then!

I will say though when they say these production cats run nearly as well when the wind is on the stern...here is a pic when we were had a 2 knot current against us and a decent breeze at a decent angle (which we all know is rare, but amazing when the stars align!). While it lasted, we spent 5 hours running between 14-23kts with max true wind speed of 25kts. Code zero, and single reef in the main, but of course it never lasts as long as you would like it to.

I love Balance! Some of the nicest cats out there. The electrical layout is a dream!


When we were looking at boats for our circumnavigation, we looked an many different vessels and many different price points. For us, we could get into the 42 and fully spec it (two autopilots, two watermakers, washer, ice maker multiple refrigeration, lithium, solar, etc) for half the price of the custom cats.


We decided to go this way and when we're done, we have the ability to buy another one if we wear this one out and still have money in the bank.


We wouldn't mind your speed though. Also, it's taken us years to hunt down and silence all of our furniture creaks...

[Sabado]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

These are real good numbers for a Lagoon 42....
Its not that don't trust you, mostly when people put some numbers in the range you show on the typical condos its mostly some fake readings of sensors or like no calibration or similar.
Good sails yes but they need the opposite below waterline and there are just minikeel, i think around 140cm darft on the 42.
I wanna believe you as if that laggon 42 can do it my Lavezzi would be able to do same or better. Just how or what do i need to modify...need new sails soon and thought about hydranets...have Flexofold folding props already.
Sailing without engine with acceptable VMG at 40 degrees that would be great, more you dont want anyhow. Going into 20 degress to wind and means mostly into wave is something you wanna avoid as going to dentist...
What sails do you actually have? Hydranet? And who made them?
What other modifications related to sailing: changed /lengthened genua tracks? For sure folding or feathering props?

I totally understand.


Mack Sails made the square top main - 10.62 oz Challenge Marblehead Premium Dacron and the jib - 9.77 oz Challenge Marblehead Premium Dacron 100% Genoa with
Sunbrella Cover and Foam Luff


North Sails did the top down furling helix gennaker and the symmetrical spinnaker


Incidence did the code zero


The biggest difference with the white sails came from custom cutting a jib. These boats have horrible jib shape with the tracks. We now leave the cars at the last slot all the time and can sail pretty high.


Honestly, the main is too much sail, we sail first reef at about 18 knots. We should have skipped the square top.


The gennaker was magic for us. 60-150 AWA up to 15 knots. We've messed around with flying it off the windward bow with a loose halyard and tack like a spin and have had a great time with that. You'll notice the sloppy luff in that video. We could have improved things significantly if I wasn't being a lazy sailor.


We are by no means a speed demon but we burn very little fuel and pay zero attention to our weight.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Sabado

We should have skipped the square top.

Agree, these are more a trendy accessory on a cruising boat. Excepting racing, square tops have a number of significant disadvantages on a cruising boat when compared to a fat head (elliptical roach) sail. Ignoring the inconvenience of stowing the diagonal top batten.

1. Reefing results in a rather poor "square gaff" requiring more sail reduction when compared to a fat head.

2. Once reefed the CE is pushed higher and remains aft increasing the chance of mast inversion.

3. Once reefed the benefits of the square top are lost and the fat head by retaining it elliptical shape becomes more efficient especially to windward.

4. Trimming in light winds is more demanding. A consequence of being able to respond by opening in a gust.

5. The stresses at the top on conventional cloth make for very heavy cloth aloft or high tech laminate.

No question square tops are absolutely the way to go on a racer where extracting the last point of a knot is the name of the game. But, really no more than a boot spoiler or a turbo sticker on production saloon, it looks good and sells the dream to "charterers".