Performance of charter cats?

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Bullshooter

"95% of these boats when on charter never even attempt to tack, hell 70% don’t bother putting up the sails"

"every charterer is motoring"

"We call them fatermarans . They are not sailing boats. Motor boats with a handkerchief on a mast to fuel one's ego that your sailing."

Speaking of egos, I would rate this thread as one of the top ten for egotistical posts. Nice going, guys

Thanks bullshooter - I also thought this post was awful. Even in the BVI, which is pretty friendly territory for people that aren't terribly accomplished sailors, I would be pretty confident when I scan the horizon, that well more than 80% of boats are flying their sails. That post has most of the ingredients that gives sailors a bad rap. Arrogant, self-serving, and to top it off - untrue.

[Wave_length]

Hi

I own a Nautitech open 40 with twin helms on the back. For me it was the balance of sail performance, comfort and price. There are more performance oriented cats, but the price goes up. As an owner I have more sails to choose from to keep sailing in light winds. IMHO Bali is not a good sailing cat, but everyone chooses their own flavor.

All the best

[Davo666]

If you can find a Seawind they sail comparatively well in my limited experience.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Snore

Finally, what point of sail were you on? Any AWA under 90 in a catamaran is a challenge, under 75 requires the engine.

Seriously? I mean seriously??? Even some of the most truly horribly abysmal cats I have sailed will get 60 degrees apparent, good well thought out mini keel boats like Seawind are very efficient and well performing at 45 apparent and good daggerboard cats will efficiently go to 30 apparent. I mean this is the sort of statement is truly either ill informed or worse.

[SV Confianza]

Originally Posted by argonauta1

I am a mono hull person and have circumnavigated in a Beneteau 440 and experienced only the normal maintenance issues. If you are intending going offshore, I would return to a mono hull after exploring the multi hull world. One sees few of these when off shore although there are some. Among those are the dismasted as sailor feedback on a multi hull is not as immediate as on a mono hull thuis one can more easily over stress the rig. One comment about the multi hull they do not point very well so one covers more distance going to a point upwind. Try going from the Baths in the BVI to the Bitter End on a typical Trade Wind day. I recall once leaving in our 440 about the same time as a charter cat. We got to the Bitter End reef entrance first. That was because when we tacked starboard to enter the pass, we were about 2 NM off as opposed to the cat which was maybe 5 NM off or further. . Similarly in the Indian Ocean heading for the Gulf of Aden, we ended up two full days ahead of vessels with a poorer pointing capability albeit they were all monohulls. Oh well, those were the days!

I don’t think that’s fair advice to give to someone looking at multis. There are certainly offshore capable (and offshore incapable) multis. Same as monohulls.

After starting as a monohull guy, I’ve moved to the dark side and am not coming back =)

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As used I was on a Bali once basically it’s a block of flats with a sail on top !!

Pretty much..horrible designs

[Jweyndling]

I have owned both an FP Orana 44 and currently an FP Saona 47. I feel these boats offer a good compromise between performance and comfort. They have decent sized sails and do not have the high boom that fly bridges require. My general rule is that I will make half the true wind speed as I long as I am a little bit off the wind. So if I have 12 knots of wind I will get 6 knots of boat speed. At 16 knots I will get about 8. Adding a code zero makes a huge difference when sailing 60-100 degrees apparent. It’s good for up to 15 knots apparent and really can add up to 2 knots of boat speed.

The boats can also sail surprisingly well to windward and can sail at 40 degrees apparent. They will definitely tack without getting in irons as long as you have about 4 knots of boat speed.

[WatchingWaves]

Hi, I thought I'd chime in since I didn't see any other posters who have sailed the Bali Catspace. I chartered one for a week this past March in BVI. (This was at the time the BVI gov't seized most of the charter fleet so Moorings could not get us the boat we had intended).


Anyway, the Catspace was a beautiful, comfortable boat but it was terrible under sail in any conditions.


I can't claim vast experience with lots of different cats. I'm really a monohull guy. And, I'm not a racer, so I can't claim I'm the best at sail trim.



I've bareboated on a variety of Leopards from 38 to 50 feet and one FP. I think that gave me a decent baseline for expectations of a charter cat. The Bali Catspace was a major disappointment in sailing performance from those.


The self tacking jib was so undersized that the (tiny) main sail completely over powered it (unless you reefed the main) making steering "upwind" really difficult, the rudder had to be way over to keep the boat from rounding up.



They added a high roach main sail (to get a little more sail) but it had a topping lift, so you could not tack effectively. The battens hung up on the the topping lift destroying the sail shape. Again, had to have in at least one reef just to be able to tack.


This boat was brand new. I was the second customer to take it out. I think I was the first to try to sail this thing.


The rear wall "garage" door to open the entire salon to the outside was awesome. And, it has a full size home style refrigerator. Great space inside.


Just don't try to sail it.

[Nicholson58]

I have not seen a charter cat that was not a DOG

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Factor

Seriously? I mean seriously??? Even some of the most truly horribly abysmal cats I have sailed will get 60 degrees apparent, good well thought out mini keel boats like Seawind are very efficient and well performing at 45 apparent and good daggerboard cats will efficiently go to 30 apparent. I mean this is the sort of statement is truly either ill informed or worse.

I've delivered "more than a few" FPs and Lagoons. I can usually convert 50% of TWS into SOG if the AWA is 90 or less. Unless it is blowing like snot, getting a good yield with an AWA under 90 is darn near impossible on most cats.

Do SeaWinds, or Catanas or other high-end cats perform better? Most likely in the right hands, with the right sails they are fast.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by WatchingWaves

(redacted)The rear wall "garage" door to open the entire salon to the outside was awesome. (redacted)

I dunno, but it just feels that something is wrong if there is something called a 'garage door' on a sailboat. Just sayin.

That being said, when I charter it is mostly cats - because my mostly non-sailing crew love them. Me, not so much. But a happy crew is more important to me than my sailing preferences. Unfortunately, I am not in the financial position to own a big boat of either hull count. So I don't have to make the ownership choice.

[caradow]

Thought I would throw in my two cents since no one has mentioned the Voyage 440 which is a "charter cat". I have chartered many cats in the past . Several Lagoons, a Nautitech, Voyage 440 and a Fontaine Pujot. The only one that did not feel as if I were driving a barge was the Voyage.
So I purchased one and owned it for almost 5 years. During that time it safely took me from Maine to Venezuela and many places in between. I once documented SOG with a short burst of 19 kts. This was going down wind on a wave with a double reefed main in 35kts. It was a short burst and scarry.
Other times I sailed with a large Screecher and a Asym. In 8 kts of TW we sailed not motored.
I come from a racing background and am amazed no one has mentioned the sail inventory needed on any boat to maximize its potential. If you guys are interested on allways sailing with a 100% jib then go ahead but don't badmouth a particular boat whether mono or multi.
The two big issues I found with the Voyage was its inability to go up wind and the banging was horrendous with its low bridgedeck clearance.
I wanted to go back to racing so I purchased a Swan 44 then I was able to go upwind like a freight train. But it lacked the space I missed on my cat. After a few years I now own an Oyster 55 which gives me the room I wanted but at uncomfortable heeling angles when beating in heavy air and also dragging almost 8 foot of boat under the water limiting where I can go. But will tolerate that for a while.
So there is no perfect boat!
Would I go back to a cat, why yes as long as it had daggerboards.

[boatman61]

It's all very well blagging about wind angles and SOG but leeway is what makes the real difference.
A fin keeler will point higher than a full keeler which will point higher than a bilge keeler and they will all point higher than a catamaran when it comes to COG.. and that's what matters.
The fewer tacks and distance covered is what matters, the rest is just blathering about the unimportant crap..

[Snore]

Originally Posted by boatman61

It's all very well blagging about wind angles and SOG but leeway is what makes the real difference.

… ….

The fewer tacks and distance covered is what matters, the rest is just blathering about the unimportant crap..

Crap! You are right.

On a delivery I am normally doing very long runs and use wind angle on the AP to reach a distant location. As such I don’t monitor leeway that would appear as the the difference between SOG and VMG.

Well done Boatie!

[smj]

Originally Posted by boatman61

It's all very well blagging about wind angles and SOG but leeway is what makes the real difference.

A fin keeler will point higher than a full keeler which will point higher than a bilge keeler and they will all point higher than a catamaran when it comes to COG.. and that's what matters.

The fewer tacks and distance covered is what matters, the rest is just blathering about the unimportant crap..

Not altogether correct. Well sailed performance daggerboard cats have been known to outpoint and outpace performance monohulls upwind.