Performance of charter cats?

[HuffinPuff]

I wish I had recorded it... it was the jib and the standard main. I had the surveyor comment on it as well. Let me take a snap shot of that pdf

[HuffinPuff]

Here is the snap shot

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CarlF

This discsussion forgets that all cruising sailboats are a compromise. A 40ft Bali in charter service is hard to beat for value for money for a week's charter vacation with a family. Sailng performance is not important when you're unlikely to go farther than 50NM.

At the other end of the modern cruising cat spectrum would be somethinig like the Outremer or a Chris White Atlantic. Which costs 2-3M. These are not particularly comfortable at anchor. And are cramped below. At anchor every tiny wave is amplified by that carbon fiber. It's also reqires a crew that is willing and able to sail the boat up to its potential and keep it safe while doing so. Two Atlantics have flipped - a fairly high percentage of those built.

My Leopard 50 is in the middle. It's faster on all points of sail than my last boat which was a 55ft shoal draft monohull ketch. Leeway is about the same too. It does a comfortable 8-9kts upwind and down - with a lot of help from that long waterline. 10kts-12kts is not uncommon. The Leopard beats the ketch in every category except classic good looks, available travelifts, and wide enough marina slips.

The sails are made by Dave Calvert, onetime helmsman of Playstation which still holds a transatlantic cat record. The props fold. I have a parasail for downwind. And Dave showed me how to get the most out of the sails - for example, most cats I see - even performance cats - are sailing with the leech far too open.

So the OP has an interesting challenge. No bareboat charter boat is likely to have folding props and performance sails - without which they will be a "dog". Nor will he have learned how to sail it in a week's charter - I'd raced monohulls for decades but it took me a year to start to feel competent trimming a cat.

What I would recommend is buying waterline - getting a 50ft Leopard is far cheaper than most 45ft performance cats even after you've added the upgrades to make it not sail like a charter cat. Your average day's run will be about the same. And it's a safe bet that your spouse will much prefer the interior and comfort -- and is more likely to come with you. If you don't mind sailing with a bunch of guys, you should get a racing boat and go racin'

If I was looking for a "performance" cruising cat with daggerboards and startling speed - Chris White would be at the top of my list. But you won't find those for bareboat charter.

Ever sailed a HH-cat? awesome and no not uncomfortable at anchor and no carbon is not amplifying everything…and that cat flys and does 27 degrees closed haul. Also not cramped down and on top. They can really do everything, the perfect performance cruising cat, was super surprised…need to rob a bank to afford one though
Mausordon TS42 is a different animal, yes everything is amplified, sailing feels like riding a cannonball but it’s lightening fast…no cruising cat, that’s adrenaline and sailing on epo….a pure race boat. I love speed and performance but that constant stress level was too much, feels like sailing constantly on the edge even when puddling around with 30% of its ability.
Charter a Neel 45 did good, the Laggons 39, 40 and 44 as well as the FP47 Sanoa are swimming houseboats with masts…sailing only if perfect condition. Good were the Leopards 40 and 44.

[HuffinPuff]

Originally Posted by juliocharts

What sails were you using? It is impossible that you were doing 4.4 knots in 6.2 knots of true wind with the regular mainsail and the standard self tacking jib

So I did some digging as I was trying to understand why you feel it is impossible.

The lagoon 40 has a KSP of .57, the leopard has a ksp of .69 and the bali 4.0 has a ksp of .75.

Based on that number, the theoretical max speed of the bali would be 4.65 in those conditions. If it were the leopard or lagoon, I could understand your point.

[juliocharts]

Originally Posted by HuffinPuff

So I did some digging as I was trying to understand why you feel it is impossible.

The lagoon 40 has a KSP of .57, the leopard has a ksp of .69 and the bali 4.0 has a ksp of .75.

Based on that number, the theoretical max speed of the bali would be 4.65 in those conditions. If it were the leopard or lagoon, I could understand your point.

I don't want to argue too much as I don't have a lot of experience sailing cats, my point of view is based on sailing a catspace every day for a week in wind conditions between 10 and 20knots true. As stated before I could be better at trimming the sails but I did play a lot with them and I don't think you could get much better than all the adjustments I tried. Is it possible that you got to 4.2 knots riding down a swell on a broad reach, maybe, but my experience is that if you are buying a catspace expecting to ride down the sunset at 4 knots of speed in a 6knots breeze, you are in for a surprise when you leave the dock for the first time.
For the record, the KSP number for an outremer 45 is .84 vs catspace at .75. I hope no one is buying a catspace expecting similar performances.
KSP is very theoritical, having a boom 18 feet from the waterline vs 10 will give you the same KSP number but a very different sailing experience.

I would love to understand why our experiences differ that much, if you had sailed it in different conditions we would have more points of comparison...

[HuffinPuff]

I understand, and you are right, I should not be having a debate based on one sail. I will be moving on the boat in Feb. Once it's fully loaded (which will have a major impact on performance) and I have had a bit more time on it, I will let you know.

[arsenelupiga]

WE own Lagoon 400. We had interesting situation couple days ago.

Left anchorage in airlie beach in 7 to 10 kn true, flat water and we had to progress upwind. After a while benetau 40.7 started as well with 3 onboard, clearly targetting us to be overtaken. Yeah, after i read CF for a while, expected the same. Funny thing is they could not approach as at all. All the trickery they tried didnt work. Maybe fouled bottom (unlikely as they looked racing types) or Lagoon do progress upwind better than expected. Eventaully engine went on mono and they stopped this embarassment.

Yeah it is not boat, but sailor that makes boat go fast. And lagoons or other heavy charter cats do have advantages in sailing.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

WE own Lagoon 400. We had interesting situation couple days ago.



Left anchorage in airlie beach in 7 to 10 kn true, flat water and we had to progress upwind. After a while benetau 40.7 started as well with 3 onboard, clearly targetting us to be overtaken. Yeah, after i read CF for a while, expected the same. Funny thing is they could not approach as at all. All the trickery they tried didnt work. Maybe fouled bottom (unlikely as they looked racing types) or Lagoon do progress upwind better than expected. Eventaully engine went on mono and they stopped this embarassment.



Yeah it is not boat, but sailor that makes boat go fast. And lagoons or other heavy charter cats do have advantages in sailing.

ROTFL. You were all good until the last two sentences. I can’t think of a single advantage regarding sailing. And some boats simply are designed slower than others. That’s OK.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by fxykty

ROTFL. You were all good until the last two sentences. I can’t think of a single advantage regarding sailing. And some boats simply are designed slower than others. That’s OK.

there are at least two advantages, based on our experience/observations.

heavy weather sailing. Weight makes boat move more graciously. My wife prone to seasickness displayed none on a rough passage AUS=NCal. Every other boat we discussed had moderate/severe seasickness in same conditions. We enquired around 20 other boats - monos and cats.

Anchoring - lagoons & similar tolerate rough anchorages better. Numerous times i observed other boats leaving to calmer place, lagoons tend to stay.

Definitely in rough conditions upwind, wide lagoon huls are liability as they dampen sail shape.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Snip....
Yeah it is not boat, but sailor that makes boat go fast. ....

It is the boat that makes it fast, it is the sailor that makes it faster.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Factor

It is the boat that makes it fast, it is the sailor that makes it faster.

well said

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

there are at least two advantages, based on our experience/observations.

heavy weather sailing. Weight makes boat move more graciously. My wife prone to seasickness displayed none on a rough passage AUS=NCal. Every other boat we discussed had moderate/severe seasickness in same conditions. We enquired around 20 other boats - monos and cats.

Anchoring - lagoons & similar tolerate rough anchorages better. Numerous times i observed other boats leaving to calmer place, lagoons tend to stay.

Definitely in rough conditions upwind, wide lagoon huls are liability as they dampen sail shape.

heavy weather sailing I partly agree, yes weight dampens but also is a liability.

Anchoring again partly, weight dampens but when it's rolly if it gets into swing pendulum is higher. 2nd they have much more windage, bad for anchoring in manoveuring in tide spots.

[SV Confianza]

Originally Posted by Factor

It is the boat that makes it fast, it is the sailor that makes it faster.

It is the boat that makes it fast, it is the sailor that makes it slower

Couldn’t help myself

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by HuffinPuff

I understand, and you are right, I should not be having a debate based on one sail. I will be moving on the boat in Feb. Once it's fully loaded (which will have a major impact on performance) and I have had a bit more time on it, I will let you know.

That would be great if you do come back here to report your real-world findings after sailing on the boat loaded for cruising for a couple of months. Having spent months of my life sailing 40' catamarans of the "charter" variety, I can tell you that you are not going to be super pleased with its performance in light air, or heavy air. But that is okay, that is not why someone chooses this type of catamaran. I think some of the push back you've received here is because lots of times when people say "this boat can do this or that speed in these conditions" without a lot of experience, then 2 years later they are back here on this forum writing about how they are trading the boat for something lighter, and more performance oriented.

Moral of the story though is just have fun and enjoy! It is the journey that matters : )

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

That would be great if you do come back here to report your real-world findings after sailing on the boat loaded for cruising for a couple of months. Having spent months of my life sailing 40' catamarans of the "charter" variety, I can tell you that you are not going to be super pleased with its performance in light air, or heavy air. But that is okay, that is not why someone chooses this type of catamaran. I think some of the push back you've received here is because lots of times when people say "this boat can do this or that speed in these conditions" without a lot of experience, then 2 years later they are back here on this forum writing about how they are trading the boat for something lighter, and more performance oriented.

Moral of the story though is just have fun and enjoy! It is the journey that matters : )

we are fully loaded L 400 now 6 years fulltime. Light wind means different things for different people but here is our experiences in lighter wind after 25k nm. With standard square top mainsail one can happily sail upwind from 7kn, doing round 2.5 to 3 at 38 app (subject to wave action) . Reaching with gennaker from ~ 6 kn doing 4-5 kn. Downwind we need 10 kn as sail collapse in less and we do 3-4 kn. Assym, have not tested enough yet to comment.