Performance of charter cats?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

How much diesel would your trawler consumer to get from Canaries to St Lucia - 2500nm say at 7.5Kn

5000 litres and 2000 litres to spare

The Lagoon 62 did it with sails and 76hrs of motor use. Elapsed time was 18 days

Some sail
Most dont

I have been cruising the QLD coast full time for seven years and casually for 30 years prior.
Rarely do I ever see big condo cats sailing at all.
If winds are much more than 20, which is what they need to sail at 7.5 knots they are usually running under power to a marina or protected anchorage.

60T trawler with all the comforts of a Lagoon 62 - Hmm new price ?

The lagoon I showed wasn't new, it was a 2010 model and still $1.5 million

Ours is a custom built from 2005 costing $800k then and a small fraction of that for us to buy in 2017.
New everything apart from hull, shaft, prop and rudder.
Launched and only moved for haul out so interior, engine etc with little usage or wear but exterior cosmetically tired.
Threw $25k AUD at her in immediate upgrades and labour and launched 2 weeks later cruising her full time about $1.35 million better off financially.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Depends.

Seems a 62ft lagoon,which offers similar comfort levels to what we enjoy now has Volvo D3 110hp X 2 using 20 litres each per hour at WOT
At 60% power and 7.5 knots they'd use around 10lph x 2 = 20lph

Our 60 tonne ex trawler uses 15lph for 7.5 knots.
Yet cost a small fraction of the lagoons price to buy.

https://au.yachtworld.com/yacht/2010...n-620-8918086/

This one has 150hp X 2
https://au.yachtworld.com/yacht/2012...n-620-8395161/

At the riisk of thread drift(but I am discussing my charter cats performance..

Our Leopard 40 uses 6 lph at 7 kts (supposedly, have not checked it!). It then has the added benefit of the sails that not only provide propulsion, but also do a great job of stabilising the boat and settling it down. Also if there is no fuel to be bought(welcome to third world destinations) you can still get around!
29hp engines are also cheaper to maintain.

Don’t get me wrong, I love powerboats and trawlers, I just cant afford 15 lph.

My dream boat if I win the lottery would be the Leopard 53pc.

Added some specs for those who may be interested.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

My 2x50hp Volvo D2 use each 3l at 2000RPM, one is enough to make 7.5kn at 2000 so 3l per hour so 1/5 of your consumption :-)

With 2x @2000 i am at 9-10kn.
Wot is 15kn with approx 2x10l per hour.

15 kn under power with no sails…wow!!! You sure thats not a powercat???

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

15 kn under power with no sails…wow!!! You sure thats not a powercat???

A bit overpowered :-) i have the luck or choice to have both, a power and sailing cat. Have 8.5t loaded up with all gear with 92sqm sail area. Sails already in light wind...
Well and close haul motorsailing at 40 degrees as i have no daggerboards put 1 engine at 1300RPM makes true 40 degrees possible and adds 1.5kn for 0.5l.diesel an hour...no brainer and you hardly hear the engine...after i replaced the gigantic 15x13 fixed prop (original is 12x11) with even bigger 18x13 3 blade Flex-o-fold ones. Added 2kn in sailing and also 1kn more WOT, best buy on this boat.

she had originally 2x20hp...former owner a motorboat guy repaced the 2x20 with 2x50hp (biggest that fit without turbos) and paid 67k for the whole conversion...all new in both engine rooms as nothing fitted.
well he had a Pershing 75 and 65 already and decided to get additionally a sailing cat...mine 19h used in 3 years my gain :-)

[aqfishing]

Nice! Googling Volvo D2…wonder if they would fit…

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Nice! Googling Volvo D2…wonder if they would fit…

Well 20hp or 30hp are 3 cylinder, 50hp is 4 cylinder and therefor longer...bigger saildrive 130S adds to length too...so engine need to be middled out which even ended up in moving the rudders front.

2xengine+saildrives+exhaust is 30k and 68kg per side more weight additional, the rest 37k making it fit and fitting. Have all the bills...i put lithium in and deleted 400AH lead which is -80kg to balance that.
He had connections to FP so they fully supported and even send adapted plans+technical drawing what need to be modified how. CE of Lavezzi is till 150hp so thats covered too, so he could have even used the D2-75 (which is the 50hp with turbo) but thankfully didn't as he didn't like turbo engines. I only paid 10k more then a normal Lavezzi with typical 3000-7000h on thier MD2020...153k with VAT in May 2021.

The cool thing is overtaking an outremer at 13kn with a Lavezzi and see the skipper face questioning whats going on :-)

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Our Leopard 40 uses 6 lph at 7 kts (supposedly, have not checked it!). It then has the added benefit of the sails that not only provide propulsion, but also do a great job of stabilising the boat and settling it down.
:

Fair enough but even a leopard 40 is 5x what we paid
$400,000 invested pays our diesel and paid maintenance bill for the year
https://au.yachtworld.com/boats-for-...pard/model-40/

Also the financier and I for that matter were not prepared to take what we see as backwards step in comfort levels

We had lived in ordinary accommodations and compromised all our lives so as to retire early.
But the houses and apartments we lived in all had
Bedroom with walk around king size bed
Comfortable lounge and space to store stuff.
Full size kitchen, full size bathroom
An abundance of refrigeration and freezer space
And 240v power - to run nice things

When we got a boat, the above were our minimums if doing it full time.
Managed to tick all those boxes and some
But, I'll admit vessels like ours for the price we paid are a rare unicorn indeed.

Also if there is no fuel to be bought(welcome to third world destinations) you can still get around!

I am on a sail south east Asia Facebook page as we would like to cruise there next year.
Most everyone on sail boats bleating about the lack of wind and excessive motoring and lack of fuel and spares.
Everyone on powered vessel cheering the fantastic motor boat weather and cheap diesel when needing it.
7000 litre tankage/3500nm range and spares a plenty has that issue well sorted for us

29hp engines are also cheaper to maintain

.
X 2 they likely cost similar as our 855 single.

Don’t get me wrong, I love powerboats and trawlers, I just cant afford 15 lph

.
My thoughts initially
And as I've owned and built cats before i'd prefer a big sailing cat

But I couldn't justify spending every cent we had on buying one and still motoring a lot of the time due to lack of wind or if sailing, difficulties in handling huge sail area 2 up.

Plus, if all monies went into the boat we'd have no income to pay fuel, rig, sails, maintenance anyway.

[HuffinPuff]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

15 kn under power with no sails…wow!!! You sure thats not a powercat???

lol... I have 2 D2-40's on a 4.0 and I don't get nearly that performance. @ 1800 rpms I burn about 1.8L per hour each. At 2000 rpms I am about 2.1L each and at 2200 (rarely done) I am about 2.5L each engine. My speed goes from 5.5knts to 6.5Knts to 7.5Knts. Never hit 10knts on engines alone. Max RMPs is about 2500.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Originally Posted by CarlF

This discsussion forgets that all cruising sailboats are a compromise. A 40ft Bali in charter service is hard to beat for value for money for a week's charter vacation with a family. Sailng performance is not important when you're unlikely to go farther than 50NM.

At the other end of the modern cruising cat spectrum would be somethinig like the Outremer or a Chris White Atlantic. Which costs 2-3M. These are not particularly comfortable at anchor. And are cramped below. At anchor every tiny wave is amplified by that carbon fiber. It's also reqires a crew that is willing and able to sail the boat up to its potential and keep it safe while doing so. Two Atlantics have flipped - a fairly high percentage of those built.

My Leopard 50 is in the middle. It's faster on all points of sail than my last boat which was a 55ft shoal draft monohull ketch. Leeway is about the same too. It does a comfortable 8-9kts upwind and down - with a lot of help from that long waterline. 10kts-12kts is not uncommon. The Leopard beats the ketch in every category except classic good looks, available travelifts, and wide enough marina slips.

The sails are made by Dave Calvert, onetime helmsman of Playstation which still holds a transatlantic cat record. The props fold. I have a parasail for downwind. And Dave showed me how to get the most out of the sails - for example, most cats I see - even performance cats - are sailing with the leech far too open.

So the OP has an interesting challenge. No bareboat charter boat is likely to have folding props and performance sails - without which they will be a "dog". Nor will he have learned how to sail it in a week's charter - I'd raced monohulls for decades but it took me a year to start to feel competent trimming a cat.

What I would recommend is buying waterline - getting a 50ft Leopard is far cheaper than most 45ft performance cats even after you've added the upgrades to make it not sail like a charter cat. Your average day's run will be about the same. And it's a safe bet that your spouse will much prefer the interior and comfort -- and is more likely to come with you. If you don't mind sailing with a bunch of guys, you should get a racing boat and go racin'

If I was looking for a "performance" cruising cat with daggerboards and startling speed - Chris White would be at the top of my list. But you won't find those for bareboat charter.

Totally agree, when I purchased my bali, it took some time to get the sails set up just right. I am now able to get 50% wind speed at 45* AWA. Can't wait to see what folding props do for me.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

That would be great if you do come back here to report your real-world findings after sailing on the boat loaded for cruising for a couple of months. Having spent months of my life sailing 40' catamarans of the "charter" variety, I can tell you that you are not going to be super pleased with its performance in light air, or heavy air. But that is okay, that is not why someone chooses this type of catamaran. I think some of the push back you've received here is because lots of times when people say "this boat can do this or that speed in these conditions" without a lot of experience, then 2 years later they are back here on this forum writing about how they are trading the boat for something lighter, and more performance oriented.

Moral of the story though is just have fun and enjoy! It is the journey that matters : )

I wrote up my findings as promised.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

Totally agree, when I purchased my bali, it took some time to get the sails set up just right. I am now able to get 50% wind speed at 45* AWA. Can't wait to see what folding props do for me.

And how is your leeway and XTE at 45AWA? Its huge... I can do even 40AWA with my Lavezzi without daggboards at 50% but below 55AWA the XTE is so big that it makes sense in 80% to have one engine on at 1300RPM to simply countersteer the XTE and add 0.5-1kn for below 1l diesel per hour.

2 blade fixed prop on a Bali to folding? Nearly nothing but sets you off 5k to get the same then fixed with FFOF plus have maintenance and for gaining 0.25kn speed. If you can sacrifice some engine losses because optional big engine a pair of cheap radice 2 blade folding props will do it, 0.25kn gain under sail but loose 0.5-1kn under engine or rev 500RPM higher for same speed.

If then Spend 3k more and get a good set of hydranet sails instead factory dacron, that really gives you 1kn or more under all angles. More you won't get. But its a swinming container with sails by default...not basing, its what it is.

[HuffinPuff]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

And how is your leeway and XTE at 45AWA? Its huge... I can do even 40AWA with my Lavezzi without daggboards at 50% but below 55AWA the XTE is so big that it makes sense in 80% to have one engine on at 1300RPM to simply countersteer the XTE and add 0.5-1kn for below 1l diesel per hour.

2 blade fixed prop on a Bali to folding? Nearly nothing but sets you off 5k to get the same then fixed with FFOF plus have maintenance and for gaining 0.25kn speed. If you can sacrifice some engine losses because optional big engine a pair of cheap radice 2 blade folding props will do it, 0.25kn gain under sail but loose 0.5-1kn under engine or rev 500RPM higher for same speed.

If then Spend 3k more and get a good set of hydranet sails instead factory dacron, that really gives you 1kn or more under all angles. More you won't get. But its a swinming container with sails by default...not basing, its what it is.

It's difficult to say as I am point the boat along a path and its following it just fine. I really didn't look to see what the heading was on the map versus what my heading was. Will have to take a look at it next time I sail.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

And how is your leeway and XTE at 45AWA? Its huge.

Not disagreeing in principle -- I suspect leeway across the board in a cat is pretty awful.


But upwind, there is a huge difference between AWA and TWA. My cruising mono sails well at 45 TWA, but that's about as close as I can get (I routinely leave tracks through a 90 degree tacking angle, but rarely see 80). But 45 AWA is more like 60 TWA (120 degree tacking angle, plus leeway), and I'm easing sheets and starting to crank. I wouldn't be surprised if a cat, even a condo cat, does fairly well at 45 AWA.


By 60 AWA (about 90 TWA), I'm often setting the ASYM.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by HuffinPuff

It's difficult to say as I am point the boat along a path and its following it just fine. I really didn't look to see what the heading was on the map versus what my heading was. Will have to take a look at it next time I sail.

Set a route in the chartplotter that is close haul put autopilot on and you should get your XTE and VMG automatically...at least thats what i am getting with a raymarine S2G or orca core (who delivers many additional parameters to XTE)
Without daggerboards or winglet keels thats what you get with shallow draft mini keels when sailing close haul on a cat. Thats pure physics. And the big windage surface of a Bali and basically not many sail trimm possibilities certainly is not helping here either....

I am waiting for the HH44 from the wynns with the winglet keels to see how much closed haul in real world they can do with them compared to daggerboards. If thats satisfying that would be a project start to check how much designing them would cost for my cat, making them from a foam block and laminating them to the keels is the easy and expect cheap part.

[gsuescum]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

Totally agree, when I purchased my bali, it took some time to get the sails set up just right. I am now able to get 50% wind speed at 45* AWA. Can't wait to see what folding props do for me.