Performance vs Comfort 50-foot Cats - real difference

[Sailingwithgil]

His anybody seen the sailing performance chart on the new Fountain Pajot Tanna 47 ? What I have been reading that Fountain used the same hull design from the FP Saona 47 . I am trying to see how it compare to the other production and performance catamarans for it size? And how does it sail in light wind? Not much info on the new design out there? FP Saona 47 does well in the ARC Rally coming in 6 position in its class B and a time of 21D 20:38:23 and the higher end Catamaran around the same time in there class A. Can you uses the ARC Rally to make a good Bench mark for performance all Catamarans?

[eneas]

Wow, Coy, this was extremely helpful post!! Nothing like first-hand experience and I really appreciate your honest thoughts and observations.
Thank you also for the kind offer of a chat. Will definitely follow-up on that with a PM. Thank you!

Originally Posted by SillyCs

First - I know nothing other than what I know - and please excuse poor punctuation and run on sentences

We own and operate SV DIVINE - a 2017 Privilege Serie 5, predecessor to the 510 - will expand on diffs below:

Thoughts in a jumble: We love the comfort under sail, doesn’t hobby horse, it does “plow” thru rather than “plain” which she should be at 48000 lbs, rock solid constuction, zero creaking or rattle or hum, handles large sea state conditions like a champ!, easy to single hand, super confident in the rock solid build, hydraulic steering is fantastic, she’s deep so plan on 5.5 ft draft!, negative in the Bahamas, positive when monos trying to race upwind (we surprise them often), can hold up to 040AWA (tho 45 is happy place before speed falls off), with gennaker (we have north helix on the sprit) she will do 10 knots in 13-15 true, that’s about as good as we get, we could maybe push harder and get 12 but the machine is telling us 10-11 is her “top speed”, light air sure she’s no performance cruiser, we like 8-10 knots TWS to sail, if it’s 6 we are motor sailing or waiting for next higher wind day, helm position was critical in our decision as we can fully enclose and see all goings on in cockpit and salon, dodger is awesome in big seas when slightly head on w port tack, all lines to helm are ideal and easy, we have 4 cabin version w two owner suites and love it!, we have two young daughters (6&7yo) and on vessel 8 mos a year, and we have guests out several times a year, having ample space is critical for us for homeschool wares, toys, etc, we have the davit system rather than dinghy cradle on aft deck, allows for easy access between stern/sugar scoops without moving thru cockpit, galley and salon are fantastic!, last year added 3300ah @12v lithionics, we can run AC all night in two master suites on batts alone and 2500w solar and a little genset next day tops them off again - these were the important requirements to us. We respect everyone is a little or a lot different and has differing needs/wants. This year our big upgrade is to North 3Di sails on the Genoa and Main (kept staysail as Dacron). Will be excited if we get a 10% improvement. The original sails have a bit of Sun damage and getting “baggy” so we made the “oh what the hell” upgrade. They deliver next week!!!

I had “privilege” (see what I did there?) of working with crew of Horus/Rogue, a newer 510 when we were in Exuma this last season. The 510 is a step above the Serie 5 as they have evolved under the direction of Rob at Priv North America! They heightened the forward section of the roof which worked wonders for VOLUME in the galley/salon!, made major improvements with the top deck, flush hatches, and nifty water channel at all edges, they also changed the AC system to a central system rather than independent systems (not sure I like this design as much by notable).

Now…

Someday when it’s just wife and I? And we are looking at circumnavigating? The HH55 sure looks appealing! And when I see the perf cats I sure do look close and think “wow”. My inner little boy wants to be invited for a sail every time! I’m fascinated by the tech and absolutely see the advantages. However that’s not where we are now. And we just love our Privilege.

Hope that helps a little. Feel free to ping me direct for a phone chat.

- Coy

[eneas]

Hi Holly,
Glad to hear from you! My wife and I did see your "Right dream, wrong boat!" youtube video some time ago in our inner search for what might be our "right boat". Again, chartering in the Mediterranean we can only experience Lagoons and FPs and cannot really get access to an Outremer 55 or HH50 to rent for a week or two. I do agree with many of the posts above that O55 and H52 both seems to be quite spaceous in their saloon area and bed space in cabins is not too bad either. H52 definitely outshines O55 in terms of the details of the finish... The Seawind 1600 was off the table because the front cabin really has only a single bed - we need three cabins with double beds so we can comfortably host both kids with their partners when they eventually bring them on board.

Thank you for sharing the other two videos - will definitely watch them and listen to your thought process as you went through this same dilemma.

Originally Posted by Holly3785n

Hello,
We just went through this decision process recently when we decided to switch from a production cat to a performance cat and settled on the Outremer 52. We did three videos on why we made the switch from comfort to performance and what we were looking for on a new boat. You can see them here.

Right dream, wrong boat!
https://youtu.be/fpPB9x81wjc

What is a performance cat?
https://youtu.be/gDoZYIsY4iM

Outremer 52 and why we picked it.
https://youtu.be/GH4q6x4J8To

Hope this helps.

[Holly3785n]

Hi,
The FP Tanna is the Saona in hull design. It’s the same boat, they just moved around couches and furniture to have more seating area for large groups.

While the FP47 is extremely comfortable at anchor, I can tell you from experience the FP47 does not sail in light wind or have good wind averages and is the reason we decided to sell the boat and move to a performance cat.

We would need 9 knots to think about putting the sails up. We had our boat for only two seasons and put 550 miles on both engines if that tells you anything and my husband is a former racer.

If you are looking at past years ARCs, specifically SY Eight, the skipper is a former racer with a lot of experience. I would not call that a good representation of how an average person would sail. The guy is amazing.

When we bought the boat the dealer had a lot of messaging about how it was more of a performance boat. I can tell you it is not.

[CaptainMarkS]

Nice to see some of our friends comment (Holly and Scott). I completely agree with Scott, nothing beats having a test sail to experience, first hand, everything from handling to comfort. Are either of you prone to sea sickness? Will the more "flighty" feel of a performance cat predispose you to this, vs the "lazy" feel of a heavier cat? Does going fast give you a rush, or make you nervous about needing to be more attentive at the helm? Are you more keen on sailing a true and tried newish boat (less maintenance / repairs, in theory) rather than breaking in something new? Do you love the latest gadgetry? Does managing the boat make intuitive sense to you? Oh, and like Scott mentioned, are there spots in the boat eager to scalp you? Very few of these questions can be answered while the boat is on display at a boat show.

As mentioned, the more you can define your needs requirements, the better. Performance cats are even more sensitive to others to weight. We have an Antares 44i which we love for the comfort while underway as well as at anchor. It is our floating home! The cabinetry and woodwork is a joy to live in. My wife loves cooking in the galley. Do I wish I could sail at wind speed up to 12 knots, especially in light air conditions? Absolutely! Do I turn shades of green when we're passed by monohull and cat alike in lighter winds? Absolutely! However, we are liveaboards. Comfort and safety were our top priority. Also, this was our first yacht. Buying a performance yacht as a first boat would have been risky!

No one vessel will satisfy all your requirements. Again, define exactly what you want, experience each vessel against those requirements, and you'll be much happier in the long term rather than working through spreadsheets, YouTube videos and forums. It's well worth the time invested. You don't need to charter. Most owners will be happy to accommodate visits / test sails. We do!

Good luck on your search.

[CaptainMarkS]

Oh... and one more comment. Interviewing owners about their experience is valuable, of course, but we're pre-disposed to post-investment bias, i.e. of course our choice was the correct one! We found interviewing delivery skippers and crew super valuable. They are less biased and can provide insight into everything from boat handling to maintenance issues. Each manufacturer works with a team of such skippers. Ask for references. You'd be amazed at the insights they can provide, separating fact from hype.

[Steamer]

I would also think of not only interior, but a hull materials. To be more precise I would FIRST think of hull materials declining polyester matrix of a luxury boat sellers who are asking terribly high price for what ones eyes see.

[RSH]

I own a Lagoon 380 (and I'm very happy with it), but if you offered me one of the three catamarans you're considering I'd pick the HH for the technology and beauty, although I'd pick the HH44 because it's just the two of us and our big dog for the majority of the time.

Trust me, you can (and will) fill any boat up with your crap-it expands to fit the space allowed.

Buy the one you enjoy sailing the most and that you like the technology-some catamarans make no sense to me in terms of how they're built, how easy they are to access key maintenance items like pumps, and the quality of the design itself.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by SillyCs

…This year our big upgrade is to North 3Di sails on the Genoa and Main (kept staysail as Dacron). Will be excited if we get a 10% improvement. The original sails have a bit of Sun damage and getting “baggy” so we made the “oh what the hell” upgrade. They deliver next week!!! …

You’ve spent the money already, so all you can do is temper your expectations. New sails will not add much if any speed to your boat. Upwind you may gain a little angle (40* AWA is very wide for “upwind”) or a bit of speed, but on wider angles improved sail shape won’t make much of a difference.

You’re happy with your boat and accept her for what she is. As the YT couple The O’Kellys found with their Leopard 46, wetted surface area, aero and hydro dynamic drag, limited sail area to displacement are facts of life - fancy new sails don’t change these things. A little extra horsepower, but that’s it.

And hopefully that’s OK, because you obviously are very happy with your boat as she is.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by fxykty

As the YT couple The O’Kellys found with their Leopard 46, wetted surface area, aero and hydro dynamic drag, limited sail area to displacement are facts of life - fancy new sails don’t change these things. A little extra horsepower, but that’s it.

.

Actual skills make a huge difference to performance.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think this choice must depend on the underlying reasons for buying a boat.

Are you simply wishing to live on the water? With all the conveniences of home? Or having the closest luxury you can get on the water to your home ashore? So then your comfort afloat could be your highest priority? Buy a luxurious cat.

Or are you buying the boat because you love the thrill of the sailing? When you feel the wind in your face and the boat is speeding along and each little change you make to the helm or sail trim instantly results in the change in the boat's feel? And maybe since you have sailed for many years you know you just can't get enough of it? Buy a high performance cat.

But be careful of choosing based on what you imagine it to be like. For example, if you are not an enthusiastic sailor you may not get the full benefit of the higher potential speeds of a high performance cat. Don't make a choice because you think it will cut time from your passages. You are not likely to get to your next port any sooner unless you are actively working the boat. So many cruisers motor everywhere anyhow (for a variety of reasons) that the extra sailing speed is rarely a benefit.

And then there is the risk which comes from a powered up performance cat. You may be fine with that and even thrilled by it, sailing on the edge, but a heavier, less powerful cat may be less likely to wind up with the mast down and the rudders up.

We wanted both.
Budget, large sail loads , finances and money said 60+ ft wasn't happening

And we weren't paying all that coin for a cat that didn't do any better miles than a displacement power cruiser

Option C for us.

[R Hutcheson]

My two cents, if your wife prefers the HH and it is acceptable to you from a safety standpoint, and I know of no reason it should fail in this regard, the HH is the boat you want. Too many cruising dreams end up on the rocks because the wife's concerns were not considered in choosing the boat. There will always be trade offs, and every boat has shortcomings, but at least she will have chosen those trade offs.

[Rimica]

I will declare a bias for performance. We have an Outre-mer 51. A fast boat is a safer boat. Last year we sailed with the SaltyDawgs organization from Hampton to Antigua. The weather window was not great. A lot of motoring was predicted. Everybody was adding jerry cans of fuel on deck. I got caught in the frenzy and did it to. On passage we sailed on little wind as opposed to motor sailed. We sailed in 6knots of wind for days. The boat was moving at 4-5 knots. We got passed by boats that were on engines because they could not sail in those winds. A lot of people ran out of fuel. We got there in good time and I still had 2/3 of my fuel. A fast boat also sails better in low winds and therefore is safer on long passages.

I am writing this from Fiji where we are now with the same boat. We did Bora Bora to Fiji in 8.5 days’ averaging 8.8knots over that time. Everyday was over 200 miles day, (Max speed was 19.7 for a brief surfing moment). The boat sailed with little effort. We sailed with 2 to 3 reefs and a Solent. Waves were 2 to 3.5 meters and winds 20 to 35 knots, broad reach. The downside is the noise. It is very noisy in the boat as the boat go through the waves at high speed. It’s like trying to sleep in a washing machine in a war zone. The helm is the quiet spot on the boat in those circumstances.

One of our friend doing the same trip is sailing the new Outre-mer 55. It is a beauty and a really fast boat. They are 2 adults and 2 young children on board.

We cooked good meals during the Fiji passage. Cooked pasta several times despite the waves, a credit to the stability of the platform. We could sail at the same speed as the wave minimizing sudden hulls movement.

We do not have a generator. We top the battery with solar and engine. My Watt and Sea is broken and it is difficult to service when moving across the world. Used my engines to fill the gap. From Panama to here,Fiji, I have used 230 liters of fuel.

In Fiji some of the nicest anchorages are very shallow (2.5 meters deep). Thx to our daggerboards we could easily go in.

I do not regret my choice of performance. The boat is easily handled by 2, offer enough space for our need. We both feel safer in it.

By the way, the after sale service of Outre-mer is very good. We bought the boat new from the factory in 2017.

[SillyCs]

Originally Posted by CaptainMarkS

Nice to see some of our friends comment (Holly and Scott). I completely agree with Scott, nothing beats having a test sail to experience, first hand, everything from handling to comfort. Are either of you prone to sea sickness? Will the more "flighty" feel of a performance cat predispose you to this, vs the "lazy" feel of a heavier cat? Does going fast give you a rush, or make you nervous about needing to be more attentive at the helm? Are you more keen on sailing a true and tried newish boat (less maintenance / repairs, in theory) rather than breaking in something new? Do you love the latest gadgetry? Does managing the boat make intuitive sense to you? Oh, and like Scott mentioned, are there spots in the boat eager to scalp you? Very few of these questions can be answered while the boat is on display at a boat show.

As mentioned, the more you can define your needs requirements, the better. Performance cats are even more sensitive to others to weight. We have an Antares 44i which we love for the comfort while underway as well as at anchor. It is our floating home! The cabinetry and woodwork is a joy to live in. My wife loves cooking in the galley. Do I wish I could sail at wind speed up to 12 knots, especially in light air conditions? Absolutely! Do I turn shades of green when we're passed by monohull and cat alike in lighter winds? Absolutely! However, we are liveaboards. Comfort and safety were our top priority. Also, this was our first yacht. Buying a performance yacht as a first boat would have been risky!

No one vessel will satisfy all your requirements. Again, define exactly what you want, experience each vessel against those requirements, and you'll be much happier in the long term rather than working through spreadsheets, YouTube videos and forums. It's well worth the time invested. You don't need to charter. Most owners will be happy to accommodate visits / test sails. We do!

Good luck on your search.

Here here! Well said. Love seeing this thread with sensible responses.

[SillyCs]

Originally Posted by fxykty

You’ve spent the money already, so all you can do is temper your expectations. New sails will not add much if any speed to your boat. Upwind you may gain a little angle (40* AWA is very wide for “upwind”) or a bit of speed, but on wider angles improved sail shape won’t make much of a difference.

You’re happy with your boat and accept her for what she is. As the YT couple The O’Kellys found with their Leopard 46, wetted surface area, aero and hydro dynamic drag, limited sail area to displacement are facts of life - fancy new sails don’t change these things. A little extra horsepower, but that’s it.

And hopefully that’s OK, because you obviously are very happy with your boat as she is.

Indeed - thanks!