Possible only replacing turnbuckles on diamond rigg without pulling the mast

[CaptainRivet]

Hi all,


how much should i "tie down" my side stays on the Lavezzi for offshore use.
we put chainplate in (for that the rigg was loose) for the crossmember and enforced the whole cats structure by 400%.
The diamond stays stayed untouch and good due to surveyor who is also a racing sailor.
surveyor suggested to go between 2 and 3% on the rigg, one rigger said 3 while 2 other sailors that are ex boat mechanics and very experienced salt necks said to go slightly over 2% as Lavezzi is a light cat that also compensate the forces with a bit more flex. so for offshore use its better if its a bit softer.

one of them helped me to adjust it 3 days ago and at around a bit over 2% he suggested to stop. genua cable is perfectly straight and from far away the mast bend looks right too. so we stoped there.

What do you thing, ok or too soft?
How can i check if ok?

We used the method where you use a 2m long piece attached on top to side stay and tie down till the stainlesssteel cable streched by 2-3% length.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Hi all,


how much should i "tie down" my side stays on the Lavezzi for offshore use.
we put chainplate in (for that the rigg was loose) for the crossmember and enforced the whole cats structure by 400%.
The diamond stays stayed untouch and good due to surveyor who is also a racing sailor.
surveyor suggested to go between 2 and 3% on the rigg, one rigger said 3 while 2 other sailors that are ex boat mechanics and very experienced salt necks said to go slightly over 2% as Lavezzi is a light cat that also compensate the forces with a bit more flex. so for offshore use its better if its a bit softer.

one of them helped me to adjust it 3 days ago and at around a bit over 2% he suggested to stop. genua cable is perfectly straight and from far away the mast bend looks right too. so we stoped there.

What do you thing, ok or too soft?
How can i check if ok?

We used the method where you use a 2m long piece attached on top to side stay and tie down till the stainlesssteel cable streched by 2-3% length.

Sorry I actually missed something up. Rigg should be under 10-15% tension.
Using a 2m piece attached to sidestay. 5% tension equals to 1,5mm stretch per meter and using a 2m piece that's 3mm stretch. So we tighten it down till we had 7mm space which is around 12% tension.
Question is that enough yes or no? How do I test?
Problem is I have no reference how that has to feel so its right. Rigg was not well adjusted when I bought it.

[CaptainRivet]

Hi,
Is it possible to only change the turnbuckles on the diamond rigg one by one without pulling the mast?
My FP Lavezzi was very little used by the one former owner !motorboat guy who had 2 pershing 65 and 70) but he taped off the turnbuckles with duct tape. Besides the chrome coming off I see a tiny bit crevice corrosion on 2 of them when I pulled the duct tape off.
I wanna change them all but don't wanna pull the mast. Rest of rigg locks good and solid.
Same with the one turnbuckles on the martingale.
Turnbuckles on sidestays already changed.
If yes how do I have to do it?

[chrisr]

we have triple diamond rig and recently changed all standing rigging (upper and lower side stays + diamonds - wires & turnbuckles) without taking mast down. it's quite common...

it's really quite simple using halyards to take the load and being sensible. diamonds are even easier than side stays as you don't have the same worry about the stick falling down !

not sure what more to explain...when you say 'how do i have to do it', what part of loosening / removing / replacing a turnbuckle do you find complicated ?

cheers,

[CaptainRivet]

I have a double diamond on the Lavezzi.
when in buying prozess for another Lavezzi who needed change of rigg I asked one rigger in St Martin and they said for changing diamonds rigg they need to pull the mast.

For the sidestay to take of the load its clear how to do this with the hailards but for the diamond not.
Have 2 spinacker hailyards front and 2 in the back, the main and the boom.

Eg to take the lower stb turnbuckle off and replace what do i have to do? Do i need to loosen the side stays?

[catsketcher]

The reason the rigger wanted to pull the mast for the diamonds is probably because it is much easier to do so. Replacing wires can one by one is not intricate but does require much more rigmarole, winching someone up the mast, replacing the stay with a temp solution, lowering the wire, taking it to the shop, and then the reverse for every stay. It's the way I do it but I do everything but make the rigging.
It would be no worries to totally drop your diamonds and replace the turnbuckles. Do it in calm water with little wind. I would ease all three turnbuckles before removing any single one. I would also reduce cap shroud rig tension too before doing the diamonds, this reduces mast compression and the need for diamonds. Just ensure you have exactly the same turnbuckles as the current ones, so you slip one off and within a minute the new one is being installed.
The real question is how old are the wires. It is rare to replace turnbuckles rather than wire. Usually it is the other way around. Also you need someone who understands diamond rigs to help you set the mast up again with the same amount of prebend, and ensure all is okay. They don't need to be a rigger. My mates and I usually do our own tuning. I always prefer this way as when out cruising you can keep a more informed eye on things. But then again it is usually me that goes up our masts. If you do not have a good bosuns chair (I prefer canyoning harnesses) and a supremely competent partner on deck along with one new halyard (never go up on an old or not new halyard) then don't do it. If you think using a snap shackle on the kite halyard is okay definitely don't do it. Better to pay someone who knows what they are doing

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

The reason the rigger wanted to pull the mast for the diamonds is probably because it is much easier to do so. Replacing wires can one by one is not intricate but does require much more rigmarole, winching someone up the mast, replacing the stay with a temp solution, lowering the wire, taking it to the shop, and then the reverse for every stay. It's the way I do it but I do everything but make the rigging.
It would be no worries to totally drop your diamonds and replace the turnbuckles. Do it in calm water with little wind. I would ease all three turnbuckles before removing any single one. I would also reduce cap shroud rig tension too before doing the diamonds, this reduces mast compression and the need for diamonds. Just ensure you have exactly the same turnbuckles as the current ones, so you slip one off and within a minute the new one is being installed.
The real question is how old are the wires. It is rare to replace turnbuckles rather than wire. Usually it is the other way around. Also you need someone who understands diamond rigs to help you set the mast up again with the same amount of prebend, and ensure all is okay. They don't need to be a rigger. My mates and I usually do our own tuning. I always prefer this way as when out cruising you can keep a more informed eye on things. But then again it is usually me that goes up our masts. If you do not have a good bosuns chair (I prefer canyoning harnesses) and a supremely competent partner on deck along with one new halyard (never go up on an old or not new halyard) then don't do it. If you think using a snap shackle on the kite halyard is okay definitely don't do it. Better to pay someone who knows what they are doing

I wouldn't ease the cap shrouds. The compression is helping to bend the mast, and that's what the diamonds are doing. The caps help hold it in the bent shape.
In this case I would just ease the diamonds, one by one, a few turns at a time, then remove them and install the new ones, tighten back up, match the previous pre-bend, and be done with it.
On a 5 point rig I would ease the lowers a little, as they are fighting the diamonds - as in they are trying to pull the mast straighter.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

I wouldn't ease the cap shrouds. The compression is helping to bend the mast, and that's what the diamonds are doing. The caps help hold it in the bent shape.
In this case I would just ease the diamonds, one by one, a few turns at a time, then remove them and install the new ones, tighten back up, match the previous pre-bend, and be done with it.
On a 5 point rig I would ease the lowers a little, as they are fighting the diamonds - as in they are trying to pull the mast straighter.

Thank you thats very helpful.
Would you also use both halyards eg to middle cleat to support the bend of the cap shrounds (what i called side stays) additionally.
Then one diamond loosing all 3 step by step and replace one by one. Then next diamond.
Correct?

How can i replace the martingale turnbuckle?

@catsketscher:
My cat was rarely used and even less sailed, due to original chartplotter total 14000nm since 2006. Owned by one owner a motorboat guy the MD2020 had 2800h (take 5kn as average and you have the 14000nm) when he repalced them with 2x50hp Volvo..from 2017 till 2021 it was on the hard, not used at all as they where installingbthe big engines. Original sails have condition of 6 years old sail used for costal sailing due to surveyor that backs that up too. During test sail owner couldn't even show how to reef it....and 2 of 3 reefs didn't work...only sailed in light wind without reef.
2 riggers and my survyour who also races volvo ocean race told me the rigg is absolutely fine, just replace the turnbuckles and the 2 bolds of the genua shroud. Technically they are all still ok.
I am running 2 extra dynema backstays to support the mast and the original rigging as i mainly sail downwind (around the world).
If sailing downdwind my 2nd spinnacker halyard runs prarallel to genua shroud as security to back it up too. So in case a diomand wire or a cap shroud rips in one go the mast will stay up. Mostly a wire of the strand breaks and then i will replace all.

[CaptainRivet]

Do you know the size the turnbuckle of the diamonds of a Lavezzi and a good online shop where to order the replacement turnbuckles? I am in the canary island.

ZSpare is a mess and wanna avoid them.my head car needed 3 month and 3 trails till they got it shipped right.

[s/v Jedi]

Here’s a tip I find very helpful: use calipers to measure and note the distance between the threaded studs in every turnbuckle. Now you can take strain off shrouds and stays but easily go back to how the mast was tuned before you started.

Also: your mast doesn’t need diamond stays to stay upright when moored: they are for keeping the mast up and straight under the forces of being under sail.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here’s a tip I find very helpful: use calipers to measure and note the distance between the threaded studs in every turnbuckle. Now you can take strain off shrouds and stays but easily go back to how the mast was tuned before you started.

Also: your mast doesn’t need diamond stays to stay upright when moored: they are for keeping the mast up and straight under the forces of being under sail.

Thanks Nick, good tip. What will happen if one diamond wire rips?
I understood they support the bending or do they provide the opposite force to the bend?
whould mast come down or break in half?
I am still very much in beginning of getting to know and learn the rigg stuff on cat especially.
As i don't have a squared top main i can run additional permanent backstays without interfering with the main. That supports the mast and bend additonal plus security in case a cap shroud breaks.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Thanks Nick, good tip. What will happen if one diamond wire rips?
I understood they support the bending or do they provide the opposite force to the bend?
whould mast come down or break in half?
I am still very much in beginning of getting to know and learn the rigg stuff on cat especially.
As i don't have a squared top main i can run additional permanent backstays without interfering with the main. That supports the mast and bend additonal plus security in case a cap shroud breaks.

I don’t know, it’s not my area of expertise. Hopefully the yachtrigger can comment…

[SUI10]

I have a Lavezzi as well, and just replaced all the standing rigging.

My rule of thump regarding rigg tension is. As loose as possible, you don't wand to break your bulkheads.
In 14kn of wind, sailing upwind with the mainsail and jib sheeted in hard. The leeward shrout should be still tight. If not, hand tight the leeward shrout turnbuckles, tack and apply the same amount of turns to the new leeward shrout.

There should be no shaking in waves, the tension should allways be there.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by SUI10

I have a Lavezzi as well, and just replaced all the standing rigging.

My rule of thump regarding rigg tension is. As loose as possible, you don't wand to break your bulkheads.
In 14kn of wind, sailing upwind with the mainsail and jib sheeted in hard. The leeward shrout should be still tight. If not, hand tight the leeward shrout turnbuckles, tack and apply the same amount of turns to the new leeward shrout.

There should be no shaking in waves, the tension should allways be there.

Yes thats what we did 2% tension.
How much did the replacement cost? Do you have by accident the sizes for the turnbuckles at the diamonds?

To secure mast for downwind sailing i run 2 additional permanent dynema backstays, secures also the mast in case a shroud breaks.

I don't worry about my bulkheads anymore. Lavezzi, in orginal state you should as all is glued but Lavezzi flexes as its lightly build...not a good combo.
Now all is like it should be :-)
All Bulkheads massivley re-enforced completely laminated in with 3-4 layers of 450g biaxial mats, stairs re-invorced and additional half bulkhead on the other side of stairs.
So basically before main bulkhead laminated from one side partly around 80cm/rest glued to hull now the main bulkhead and stairs is one massive bulkhead laminated on the whole length from both sides with epoxy to the hull on 3 different spots.
Same with front one. All can work with as laminated. 300% more stable, for structural test and survey we lifted it on only STB stern and BB front with a sling 10cm above the stands, ...standard would break apart.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here’s a tip I find very helpful: use calipers to measure and note the distance between the threaded studs in every turnbuckle. Now you can take strain off shrouds and stays but easily go back to how the mast was tuned before you started.

Also: your mast doesn’t need diamond stays to stay upright when moored: they are for keeping the mast up and straight under the forces of being under sail.

calipers are an excellent idea, however if you don't have such available some tape around the thread is usually sufficient to mark the return point when tightening up again

cheers,