Question about Kit Cats (Fusion, Schionning, Spirite)

[CortoMaltese]

I was wondering if it worth going to live 1 year in Thailand and build a cat there.
Had a quick look to the designs of these cats and they all look fantastic, specially wilderness 1250x and the fusion. My only concern is about how much this will cost over the kit price that is around the 100k range.
In your point of view wich of the mentioned kits is the more expensive/cheeper and why for an average fit.
Do you agree that once ready might worth much more that what has been invested?
Cheers

[CortoMaltese]

And another question: where is the best country where to build? Thailand, China, S.Africa?

[andreas.mehlin]

well, the boat will cost you alot more than those 100k.
I guess a total of 300-600k (depending what you put on)

Engines x 2
Sails
Deck hardware (blocks, winches etc)
Standing & running rigging
Electronics & electricity
Good labour...
Plumbing
...and a lot more

[CortoMaltese]

300/600k?? In countries where man labour is basically cheap? So what the convenience of a kit if at the end would cost more than a ready production cat? My believe was that was a cheaper way to get a nice big cat.

[ausaviator]

Don't Fusion quote something like $125k for a kit and $500k sail away...?

Of which perhaps, what, maybe $100k is is labour?

$100,000 / $20 per hour labour (probably double the Asian labour rate) = 5000 hours build time.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CortoMaltese

300/600k?? In countries where man labour is basically cheap? So what the convenience of a kit if at the end would cost more than a ready production cat? My believe was that was a cheaper way to get a nice big cat.

I believe a Schionning 1250 would take somewhere around 6000 to 8000 hours to build, depending on the level of finish/fitout you wanted.

A Fusion probably in the order of 4000 - 6000 hours.

This is based on the time taken to build my own boat, which is similar to, but simpler and faster to build than the Schionning.

(Some photo's here: Member Galleries - Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery )

So all you really need to do is factor in labour costs. Materials beyond the kit cost will depend largely on how you fit out and rig the boat. In my case the kit cost around $72,000 Au, including plans, and the boat was completed for around $200,000 total. BUT, I was able to build in my backyard, so no shed rental, which can be quite expensive.

The real advantage, IMO, in building these kits is that you simply can't buy boats like them, (unless you're willing to pay a fortune). These boats are light, and perform very well, most production boats are remarkably (almost unbelievably) heavy and don't.

[CortoMaltese]

Thanx for input.
Can't find it now, but if i am not wrong it's like 4000 labout the Fusion and around 6000 the Schionning.
But these hours can be reduced dramatically depending the fit: fusion kit producer claims that kit can be finished in 3 weeks with 6 persons working: that's less than 300 hours and we are talking about a boat than can be put in the water and continue working on it.
Anyway, my idea would be to get the boat built till the stage that can be put in sea, install engines and then slowly working on the interiors personally and contracting a few persons to help to make the job done.
I might be wrong, but travelling a lot in certain countries i know that negotiation ability can make big differences.

44'C: very nice boat sir. 200k total or +70 of the kit? That is a very good price for that size of boat, and it's what i am thinking to spend for mine if possible.

[aclmck]

Originally Posted by CortoMaltese

Thanx for input.
Can't find it now, but if i am not wrong it's like 4000 labout the Fusion and around 6000 the Schionning.
But these hours can be reduced dramatically depending the fit: fusion kit producer claims that kit can be finished in 3 weeks with 6 persons working: that's less than 300 hours and we are talking about a boat than can be put in the water and continue working on it.
Anyway, my idea would be to get the boat built till the stage that can be put in sea, install engines and then slowly working on the interiors personally and contracting a few persons to help to make the job done.
I might be wrong, but travelling a lot in certain countries i know that negotiation ability can make big differences.

44'C: very nice boat sir. 200k total or +70 of the kit? That is a very good price for that size of boat, and it's what i am thinking to spend for mine if possible.

Not entirely sure but the 300 hours only gives you the outside the rest (the biggest part) still has to be done complete fit out of the interior (i built a schionning power cat and the hulls and bridge deck and bulkheads only took a few months, few years latter i was fitting off the electronics.

Suggest you talk to people that are building them currently and find out how many hours to "FINISH" each option before putting any money forward.

Fusion also offer internal fit out kits for some of the internals but these cost extra than the kit price, Fusions kit does not normally include all the internal fit out materials, Schionnings kit usually cover the vast amounts of everything you need for materials

NONE of the kits allow for Paints,sandpapers,tapes,gloves masks, screws,bolts,stainless fittings etc etc etc etc

Do your homework well

[cruiz9]

Try Serenity Shipyard in Pattaya Thailand ,had a tour through this yard 1 year ago and they seem very professional, they build Schionnings and possibly Fusions at around 60-70% of australian price and will build up to any stage you want.

[valhalla360]

If you just want a stripped down boat for day sailing or very basic living, you can probably keep the cost down but it's still going to easily double the hull price. Of course when the time comes to sell, it will probably be worth less than what you paid for the hull because most people want a fully outfitted boat (depends how badly you cut corners).

If you want it fit out equivilent to a production boat it's going to cost at least as much. Even with cheap local labor, you are up against production guys who have built in efficencies from doing the same boat over an over. Also getting all the bits and pieces in another country is likely going to add on costs.

Where it makes sense is if you want something custom and you don't care about resale (but remember it is the exceedingly rare individual where resale is not a consideration, even if they say it's not, life has a way of changing).

[CortoMaltese]

I've send an email to Serenity Shipyard just ho have an idea, but for what i can read with my 300k budget i'm starting to feel like i'm dreaming. Indeed it's much easier to get a production cat and avoid surprises, but i thought could be slightly cheaper the kit way to get something better and new; and yes, resale is always an important point even if i'm thinking to keep the boat long term, but who knows.
My cat will be a liveaboard long term me, wife and a kid so even trying to cut corners i still have some basic needs that i can't and don't want to renounce.

[Tropic Cat]

The percentage of people who begin kit projects and fail to complete them is probably very high. Also, the people who complete a build but their life circumstances have changed from the beginning of the build has to also be significant. Why not explore these two areas?

Here's a couple of fusions for sale after the build was completed.

Australian Fusion 40 for sale by owner

North American Fusion 40 for sale by owner

[CortoMaltese]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

The percentage of people who begin kit projects and fail to complete them is probably very high. Also, the people who complete a build but their life circumstances have changed from the beginning of the build has to also be significant. Why not explore these two areas?

Here's a couple of fusions for sale after the build was completed.

Australian Fusion 40 for sale by owner

North American Fusion 40 for sale by owner

Beautiful boats.....sadly way off my budget, but specially the first one would meet my needs perfectly. I should wait till the price drops a bit before doing an offer that would not offend seller.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CortoMaltese

Thanx for input.
Can't find it now, but if i am not wrong it's like 4000 labout the Fusion and around 6000 the Schionning.
But these hours can be reduced dramatically depending the fit: fusion kit producer claims that kit can be finished in 3 weeks with 6 persons working: that's less than 300 hours and we are talking about a boat than can be put in the water and continue working on it.
Anyway, my idea would be to get the boat built till the stage that can be put in sea, install engines and then slowly working on the interiors personally and contracting a few persons to help to make the job done.
I might be wrong, but travelling a lot in certain countries i know that negotiation ability can make big differences.

44'C: very nice boat sir. 200k total or +70 of the kit? That is a very good price for that size of boat, and it's what i am thinking to spend for mine if possible.

Remember, designer's claims for build times will always be a little optimistic. Or based on builders experienced in that type of kit, and building to a pretty basic stage.

The Fusion kit can be assembled quickly, but it's nowhere near a finished boat. The exterior of the moulded parts is nicely finished, but the interior needs a LOT of work. It might be possible to launch the boat in that state and finish it in the water, but it would probably double the time taken. Everything is much more difficult on the water, compared to being in a shed.

The cost of my boat was 200k all up, including sails. But remember my labour cost was almost zero. (I had to pay a gasfitter because Qld regulations required it, but everything else was done by me.)

If you can find a part constructed project for sale, you can certainly save a lot of money. They're worth very little until they're near launch. I've even heard it said that joining the hulls almost reduces the value, (if no further work was done) because it makes transporting the boat much more difficult and expensive.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CortoMaltese

I've send an email to Serenity Shipyard just ho have an idea, but for what i can read with my 300k budget i'm starting to feel like i'm dreaming.

If you want to pay someone else to do the work then you probably are dreaming. If you're willing to do the work yourself, then a nicely fitted out and equipped boat around the 12-13 metre range for around $300k is an achievable target.