Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

[Sand crab]

And it's still for sale. Only $560,000. Is that 3 or 4 years now?

[ejlindahl]

I have no particular interest in this discussion but I thought i'd mention that yesterday I saw what looked to me like a Walker wingsail on about a 60' monohull on the South tip of South America, Ushuaia Argentina. This is on the Beagle Channel just a "stones throw" from Cape Horn. It must be pretty robust to have made it this far. Also there's a nice 50' Catana down here, drool…..

[JJ77]

Originally Posted by ejlindahl

I have no particular interest in this discussion but I thought i'd mention that yesterday I saw what looked to me like a Walker wingsail on about a 60' monohull on the South tip of South America, Ushuaia Argentina. This is on the Beagle Channel just a "stones throw" from Cape Horn. It must be pretty robust to have made it this far. Also there's a nice 50' Catana down here, drool…..

That 60 mono must have been this one;


It is a Trintella 60 doing charterwork around Kaap Hoorn.
Icebird

Although I believe they call it an aerorigsail,not wingsail.

Cheers,

JJ

[JJ77]

Meanwhile Beneteau is trying another variant,softwing..
Beneteau-Flügelrigg: Innovativ: der Flügel für alle - Service*|*YACHT.DE

[ejlindahl]

Yep, that Trintilla 60 is what I saw in Ushia, but I'm pretty sure the hull was white.

[ranchero76]

Wow! It's still for sale, after many years. I want one! Not at $599K, of course
I personally (as engineer and tech guy) absolutely love idea "sailing without sail". And for these who concerned about "how these wings will do in heavy winds" - above in this thread already been explained that wings are safe the way they are (and are manually controlled, too!). BUT! Its EXTREMELY simple to make automated system which will retract simple flat material (similar to mast furling) and (if it's necessary) leaving just wing skelethon exposed. Here's another prototype:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1cEFP_H4Rk

Definitely looks like future of sailing to me.
I'd love to sail that Larinka!

[pbmaise]

Currently priced at 139,000 pounds.

Walker Trimaran Wingsail 43 - Boats for sale - YBW

[UpOnStands]

Big hit on the price but you've got to wonder where the spares are going come from and of course how soon they'll be needed.

[ranchero76]

It's amazing how market has been changed during this year. I only watching one specific segment, not all the market. But in that segment (big 55ft+ cats) 3-5 year old boats came down in prices a lot (I'd say - around 20% average, many - even more). Many older boats finally became reasonably priced, some - after many years on the market. As extreme sample - boat, that was listed at 1.600.000 Euro couple years ago, finally got offer now, when it was relisted at 495.000 Euro ($517k). And that's 73ft monster, launched in 2007!

Same with this beautiful piece of history. I like idea of Wingsail. This particular boat is very affordable now and has been recently refreshed. But with all other modern boats flooding the market, with their attractive features, finish and living space, this beauty is not that attractive anymore.
I don't see any problem with doing repairs and maintenance on this boat. Any smart man with some engineering and fabricating skills can do it.
I still would love to see this boat someday, it's truly amazing piece of history.

[Skeezix]

Current price of Larinka US$180,000. Maybe it starts to be worth it?

Readers are encouraged to read carefully about this boat. Lots of misinformation in this thread. Especially about computer control, which it does not have. Seems like simple electronics to a few motorized gears to set the surface angles, and with manual backup. I'd be more concerned with the hydraulic steering and its tiller backup.

As to sailing downwind, Wing Sailor's repeated response does not clarify the simple fact that those stuck in conventional rigging can't see: The wing pivots 360 degrees. So it always can create lateral thrust by pivoting its leading edge into the wind. As long as the boat is not exactly 90 to that thrust, the boat will move. So it can sail any direction except dead upwind or dead downwind. This also is why it can sail backwards.

One valid concern I did see mentioned is weight aloft. Videos of the boat seem to show the bow dipping into waves and taking water at speeds that are not extreme. Seems to hobbyhorse into them more than it should. Or perhaps it is an effect of the boat being heavy so it is not climbing over them well. I wonder how it might perform if not loaded like a condomaran.

[Chris 249]

Windsurfers with camber-induced sails are also effectively rigid wings, at least in light winds when the camber inducers force the battens to hold the whole sail in a wing shape. However, windsurfers cannot sail in any direction apart from dead upwind - they sail no closer than 45 degrees to the true wind. The same applies to wing-sailed racing cats - they still sail at about 45 degrees to the true wind or more.

As the experts who actually design the America's Cup wingsails point out, there is nothing magic about wing sails. They have superior lift/drag configurations in some ways and inferior configurations in other ways. Experts like Tom Speer (Boeing wing designer and America's Cup wingsail designer) and Professor Mark Drela (MIT aerodynamics legend, designer of world champion aircraft and America's Cup wingsail designer) have pointed it out quite often on Boat Design Forum.

When Walker Wingsail systems sued Yachting World magazine, even Walker's own expert witness "found that the yacht did not perform as well as the manufacturers
had claimed". It's interesting to see that the builders of the Seascape sportsboat publicly said that another "soft wingsail" did not perform as claimed when they tried it. Another "soft wingsail" developer has been talking up the concept for years but has yet to either line up against a comparable boat publicly, or to take their product to market.

We know for a fact that wingsails did not out-perform soft sails even on racing cats for many years. We also know that in classes such as A Class cats, 18 Square cats. foiling Moths and windsurfers, wingsails did not perform as well as soft sails. The benefits are apparently highly over-rated.

As for the earlier claim that "it's already been explained" that wingsails "are safe the way they are". Well, it hasn't been explained - it's been claimed. On the other hand, we have accounts from plenty of owners of wing-masted boats that tell us that even wing masts, which are smaller than wing sails, suffer from significant problems in strong winds. Even the professional shorthanded racers limited the size of their wing masts for safety reasons.

[ejlindahl]

Well now I am in the Netherlands and saw a sleek ~90' double masted Aerorig in Den Helden. It advertises trips to the Arctic. I guess that covers the globe, see post #62/63 above. Again no particular interest in this subject, I just have happened upon two of these unusual boats in "high-ish" latitudes.

[Wing sailor]

It is important to remember that a badly designed and built wing will have inferior performance, and a badly designed and constructed sail will have inferior performance. I have seen photographs of soft wings with deep wrinkles all over the leading edge. Any one of these examples could give the impression of terrible performance and so discredit the type of aerofoil.

conventional single surface sails have a section maximum lift co-efficient of about 1.3.
A wing sail with a flap deployed will have a section lift coefficient of about 2.7.
I have no figures for a soft wing (a double surface sail).

Hang gliders origonally had single surfaces and gradually progressed to partial double surfaces i.e. 40% double surface was for a time popular. There are now hang gliders with 100% double surfaces, in other words a wing.

This was done for performance.

Sails and wings have different practical capabilities and limitations, Having sailed Larinka through some extreme weather, I can say that in the middle of some extreme conditions I was able to precisely de-power the rig with two controls. One for the tail and one for the flap, that was certainly better than trying to reef a copnventional sail. at the same time a spinaker can provide a lot of square meterageof area but fit in a bag.

This is probably what is driving the development of soft wings, a wing that can be removed and will fit into a bag.

At one time I was a glider pilot, the flight possibilities were amazing, then I tried hang gliding.

[Wing sailor]

It is important to remember that a badly designed and built wing will have inferior performance, and a badly designed and constructed sail will have inferior performance. I have seen photographs of soft wings with deep wrinkles all over the leading edge. Any one of these examples could give the impression of terrible performance and so discredit the type of aerofoil.

conventional single surface sails have a section maximum lift co-efficient of about 1.3.
A solid wing sail with a flap deployed will have a section lift coefficient of about 2.7.
I have no figures for a soft wing (a double surface sail).

Hang gliders origonally had single surfaces and gradually progressed to partial double surfaces i.e. 40% double surface was for a time popular. There are now hang gliders with 100% double surfaces, in other words a wing.

This was done for performance.

Sails and wings have different practical capabilities and limitations, Having sailed Larinka through some extreme weather, I can say that in the middle of some extreme conditions I was able to precisely de-power the rig with two controls. One for the tail and one for the flap, that was certainly better than trying to reef a conventional sail. at the same time a spinaker can provide a lot of square meterage of area but fit in a bag.

This is probably what is driving the development of soft wings, a wing that can be removed and will fit into a bag.

At one time I was a glider pilot, the flight possibilities were amazing. Then I tried hang gliding, the performance was much less but the portability and convienience of accessable flight was very attractive.

Sails work.
soft wings work.
And solid wings work.

Wng sailor

[Chris 249]

Originally Posted by Wing sailor

It is important to remember that a badly designed and built wing will have inferior performance, and a badly designed and constructed sail will have inferior performance. I have seen photographs of soft wings with deep wrinkles all over the leading edge. Any one of these examples could give the impression of terrible performance and so discredit the type of aerofoil.

conventional single surface sails have a section maximum lift co-efficient of about 1.3.
A wing sail with a flap deployed will have a section lift coefficient of about 2.7.
I have no figures for a soft wing (a double surface sail).

Hang gliders origonally had single surfaces and gradually progressed to partial double surfaces i.e. 40% double surface was for a time popular. There are now hang gliders with 100% double surfaces, in other words a wing.

This was done for performance.

Sails and wings have different practical capabilities and limitations, Having sailed Larinka through some extreme weather, I can say that in the middle of some extreme conditions I was able to precisely de-power the rig with two controls. One for the tail and one for the flap, that was certainly better than trying to reef a copnventional sail. at the same time a spinaker can provide a lot of square meterageof area but fit in a bag.

This is probably what is driving the development of soft wings, a wing that can be removed and will fit into a bag.

At one time I was a glider pilot, the flight possibilities were amazing, then I tried hang gliding.

Yes, you can design a bad wing - but the America's Cup sailors, the A Class sailors, the Moth sailors and most of the other guys I'm talking about don't design bad wings, and yet wings get beaten in some of those classes and some of the AC wing designers say that wings are not superior all-round - as Tom Speer (Boeing and AC designer) has noted "There's nothing magical about a rigid wingsail. The soft sail rig on USA 17 was faster than the wingsail in some conditions. Whether a wing or soft rig will be faster depends on the class constraints and the sailing conditions." Even the ability to develop high maximum lift is (as Speer notes) not all that important on many craft. Tom also notes that a reefed soft sail has lower parasitic drag than a feathered wing.

If the Walker Wingsail is so incredibly fast, why haven't people proved it on the racecourse? It could just have turned up in any one of the many races where there are no restrictive rules and burned everyone off to show the concept.

Double-surface sails have been tried for many years - it's getting on for a century. I've raced with double-surface luff sails for years and raced against double-surface sails. The former went well, but not as well as theory said, and the latter were terribly slow. I've got three wingmasts and have had others, and none of them is as fast in reality as in theory. In reality there are many problems with things like gust response that don't show up in the same way in theory and in aircraft.

It's good that you agree that rigid and soft sails have different advantages. I get frustrated by the people who claim that wingsails are superior all-round, when there is decades of practical experience to show that is not the case.