Resin Types In Catamaran Construction

[massnspace]

Epoxy best……but….

It cannot be final coated with gel coat…..so any later epoxy repair work you may encounter would have to be re-painted, not re-gelled…..and you will never be able to get a perfect blended match at the edges with paint, so you will see the repair. With vinylester you can get a near-perfect blended edge repair.

[slowNlow]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Polyester resin does not stick well to cured polyester resin. Therefore epoxy resin is often used for the repair of polyester boats, but this creates a discontinuity in the hull structure where there is a transition between the different properties and flexibility of polyester and epoxy resins. Therefore polyester resin is sometimes used despite the drawbacks of poor adhesion.

An epoxy repair on an epoxy structure does not suffer these problems. Epoxy resin sticks well to both cured polyester and cured epoxy resin.

Epoxy resin is not hard to source.

Interesting. I've never heard that, i'd like to learn more. I'm not saying you are wrong, but i believe you are. FYI we process tanker-loads of poly and VE resin monthly.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by slowNlow

This is false and a fundamental, reason why I might chose ve/poly over epoxy

You get an epoxy boat, you can’t repair it with poly or ve…. You gotta go epoxy. Get a poly or ve boat (they are essentially the same from a process perspective) you can fix it with any of the three.

Ask outremere what the upcharge would be to go with a full VE build. Cost is maybe a few bucks a pound, these boats are only 40 percent resin at best…. It’s not much. Breaks my mind that they even mess about with the different resins.

No, it is not false, or perhaps we have not understood each other, what i mean is that epoxy surpasses poly in every aspect except in price.

Poly is not a DIY resin in many cases, it is better to leave it to the Pro`s, structurally speaking, repairing or modifying a critical part of the boat in epoxy when the whole boat is made of poly can cause problems.

Now comes the question of what to do when you have to repair something with epoxy that is surrounded by white gelcoat.

I have built stern extensions in some catamarans in poly, to date without any claim.

I leave you some examples ,so you can see that with poly you can do whatever you want while maintaining the original material and its OEM specifications plus saving costs.

[Giova]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

So I'm currently building a 100% epoxy/carbon fiber catamaran and went through this decision making process recently, so just throwing out there that I'm admittedly biased. But yes there is a difference, it costs a whole hell of a lot more in materials, but the bigger aspect is there is a lot more labor involved to hand fairing. You get what you pay for.

Manufacturers choose polyester gel coat because it is cheap and makes the boat go together fast which equates to higher profit. Nothing wrong with that. Is it worth the extra cost, that is for you to decide.

Interesting final (2) choices you are deciding between and honestly I would not let hull material be the deciding factor. When I was deciding Outremer told me I could request a boat made fully of vinyl ester for an additional cost, but not sure if that is still the case. I think the Outremers are a fantastic boat but it boggles my mind that they are still cutting corners and using the cheapest polyester resin they can get their hands on to build their boats but charging the prices of using higher quality materials. But other than that, there is not much to not like and their aftermarket customer service is the benchmark in the industry in my opinion.

Negotiating the maze of subtle differences in what you are buying is extremely difficult, and although I briefly looked at the ITA it did not make our short list, the Outremer 55 did although we ultimately went a different direction. So many factors to consider, and yes hull material is exteremely important, but not a show stopper. If you've looked at every available option availbable to you and your heart is between these two, I'd tell you to go with Outremer as they have the track record and resale down the road will be very strong. ITA has for some reason just not resonated with buyers the same as other brands, but maybe someone could correct me if there are a lot of hulls out there or under contract.

Good luck in your decision making process!

Hard decision ... I believe the main topics are:

ITA is more of a niche semi custom builder. I spoke with several yards and they all say that the guys have a huge amount of experience and there' s no doubt on their build quality. This has a huge impact on the number of units they can build per year, and there's no comparison with Outremer which, despite being a high end manufacturer, it cannot be considered a custom yard. If you look around the internet, you can find feedbacks from the guys that bought their cats (if I recall correctly a couple from NZ that strolled around the Med and then crossed oceans to go back home, then a Swiss and a Canadian plus a French).

On the other hand, Outremer has no need for an introduction, you have both a great post sales support and, probably more so, a great reselling value.

In my opinion, ITA is a better built boat, but Outremer could be a more clever buy (for now).

Hope this helps

[Rucksta]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Now comes the question of what to do when you have to repair something with epoxy that is surrounded by white gelcoat.

You give the epoxy a coat of vynal then apply gel coat

[s/v Jedi]

Need to know exactly where they used polyester but I don’t like the idea of mixed use of two resins at all.

Jedi is built with vinylester, even the folding seat in the head. I see no excuse for using polyester above the waterline.

So if all else is equal, I would prefer the epoxy catamaran

[SoPacBound]

If vinylester has been used to build a boat, does the hull still need a barrier coat to prevent osmosis?

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Rucksta

You give the epoxy a coat of vynal then apply gel coat

I already did the test a long time ago , it didn't work for me, neither with poly or gelcoat nor with vinylester, i still do not care what West may advertise about applying gelcoat over cured epoxy, vinylester is a hybrid, the formulation once cured is between the 2 .

[slowNlow]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I already did the test a long time ago , it didn't work for me, neither with poly or gelcoat nor with vinylester, i still do not care what West may advertise about applying gelcoat over cured epoxy, vinylester is a hybrid, the formulation once cured is between the 2 .

nothing bonds well to epoxy but more epoxy or engineered paint systems. Regardless of how you prep it.

more stuff to confuse;

There are versions of VE that have an epoxy component https://polymerdatabase.com/polymer%...er%20type.html

more stuff to think about... brominated epoxy vinyl ester resins as they yield a class 1 flame spread rating (resist burning). required by certain building code. Dont know if they make a version of that product (Dow 510) that can be infused etc but.. having a boat that didnt burn or would not burn well seems like it woiuld be a hell of a selling point.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by slowNlow

This is false and a fundamental, reason why I might chose ve/poly over epoxy

You get an epoxy boat, you can’t repair it with poly or ve…. You gotta go epoxy. Get a poly or ve boat (they are essentially the same from a process perspective) you can fix it with any of the three.

Ask outremere what the upcharge would be to go with a full VE build. Cost is maybe a few bucks a pound, these boats are only 40 percent resin at best…. It’s not much. Breaks my mind that they even mess about with the different resins.

Their controllers (private equity involved) are calculating with the 3rd digit after the comma (below a cent)….so saving on 40% of the boat is a big deal

I would look at HH catamaran, better build quality with minimum similar performance and price then comparable outremer.
But yes I would also go all VE if an outremer. The difference between VE and epoxy is small but eg on hull to work with VE is much easier and tolerant then epoxy. So in case of a repair you have more options.
Why actually gelcoat on the underwatership, unnecessary but other other mentioned fairing epoxy putty is much more labour intensive then spraying polyester gelcoat on.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Their controllers (private equity involved) are calculating with the 3rd digit after the comma (below a cent)….so saving on 40% of the boat is a big deal

I would look at HH catamaran, better build quality with minimum similar performance and price then comparable outremer.
But yes I would also go all VE if an outremer. The difference between VE and epoxy is small but eg on hull to work with VE is much easier and tolerant then epoxy. So in case of a repair you have more options.
Why actually gelcoat on the underwatership, unnecessary but other other mentioned fairing epoxy putty is much more labour intensive then spraying polyester gelcoat on.

I'd agree that HH offers a significantly better value for the dollars spent than Outremer. I'm a retired mechanical engineer & owned a custom manufacturing company that built lots of high-end projects with million-dollar price tags, so it is easy for me to see how Outremer is squeezing out profit and cutting corners on materials & labor compared to the alternatives out there. HH on the other hand scares me because a big portion of my business was dealing with China, and I'd personally not enter into a multimillion-dollar contract to have one built there. Now purchasing second had would be considered, but still, you have to consider the 25% tariff tax you have to add to your sales price if you are a U.S. citizen and don't want to dodge taxes. I don't think this applies to the OP though.

Boats to be considered in addition to the ITA/Outremer (if the OP already has not):
HH52/HH50 $2.4M though for a boat with only 48 feet of waterline is pricy.
HH55 - this is the benchmark for performance/luxury for a sailing couple.
ORC50 (TS5) - unquestionable performance, light on livability
Catana50OC - personally not a fan, but it's a decent boat.
Balance 482 - VE/gelcoat build, good performance - poor man's HH50
Balance 526 - great performance & quality you choose epoxy or full carbon.
Kinetic KC54 - great performance & quality - totally custom carbon fiber
Dazcat 1495 - great performance lacks a little livability in my opinion.
Mumby 48 - aluminum, great performance, a little spartan on the living side
Schionning - great performance boats, but you have to commission yourself.
Chris White - pinnacle of performance short of a Gunboat
Windelo 54 - Don't know enough yet to have an intelligent opinion.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by slowNlow

nothing bonds well to epoxy but more epoxy or engineered paint systems. Regardless of how you prep it.

more stuff to confuse;

There are versions of VE that have an epoxy component https://polymerdatabase.com/polymer%...er%20type.html

more stuff to think about... brominated epoxy vinyl ester resins as they yield a class 1 flame spread rating (resist burning). required by certain building code. Dont know if they make a version of that product (Dow 510) that can be infused etc but.. having a boat that didnt burn or would not burn well seems like it woiuld be a hell of a selling point.

Well , this reminds me of those early Valiants and the fire retardant resin used in the first molds and the subsequent tales of hulls filled with blisters.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by SoPacBound

If vinylester has been used to build a boat, does the hull still need a barrier coat to prevent osmosis?

It does not.

Neither does epoxy.

A barrier coat is for polyester and marginal polyester at that.

[sw34]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

I'd agree that HH offers a significantly better value for the dollars spent than Outremer. I'm a retired mechanical engineer & owned a custom manufacturing company that built lots of high-end projects with million-dollar price tags, so it is easy for me to see how Outremer is squeezing out profit and cutting corners on materials & labor compared to the alternatives out there. HH on the other hand scares me because a big portion of my business was dealing with China, and I'd personally not enter into a multimillion-dollar contract to have one built there. Now purchasing second had would be considered, but still, you have to consider the 25% tariff tax you have to add to your sales price if you are a U.S. citizen and don't want to dodge taxes. I don't think this applies to the OP though.

Boats to be considered in addition to the ITA/Outremer (if the OP already has not):
HH52/HH50 $2.4M though for a boat with only 48 feet of waterline is pricy.
HH55 - this is the benchmark for performance/luxury for a sailing couple.
ORC50 (TS5) - unquestionable performance, light on livability
Catana50OC - personally not a fan, but it's a decent boat.
Balance 482 - VE/gelcoat build, good performance - poor man's HH50
Balance 526 - great performance & quality you choose epoxy or full carbon.
Kinetic KC54 - great performance & quality - totally custom carbon fiber
Dazcat 1495 - great performance lacks a little livability in my opinion.
Mumby 48 - aluminum, great performance, a little spartan on the living side
Schionning - great performance boats, but you have to commission yourself.
Chris White - pinnacle of performance short of a Gunboat
Windelo 54 - Don't know enough yet to have an intelligent opinion.

All contracts for HH44 and HH52 taken as of mid/late last year are going to be built in Philippines, not China. There may be other sizes as well, those for sure. I have the same concerns about China as you do.

You could also add the MaxCruise 48 and 55, though there are still a lot of small details in design phase last I checked.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by sw34

All contracts for HH44 and HH52 taken as of mid/late last year are going to be built in Philippines, not China. There may be other sizes as well, those for sure. I have the same concerns about China as you do.

You could also add the MaxCruise 48 and 55, though there are still a lot of small details in design phase last I checked.

Yes, the MaxCruise should be on that list as well for sure great boats.

I know the contract of the future HH's will be built in the Philippines, but that gives me even more caution about the brand itself. Why would you move from China and their incredibly skilled (and abundant) workforce if there is not a fundamental underlying reason to do so? How skilled is this workforce in building high quality carbon fiber high performance catamarans? I guarantee you workforce isn't "moving". Too many question marks for me as someone with experience in business dealings in China. I'm sure it will be fine, and it is a great brand with a fabulous product...but boat building is a notoriously tough low margin business. Just go in with eyes wide open!

The hull of HH52 is still the same as the HH50 (which was originally designed as the HH48 but was stern heavy and they had to extend her). It cracks me up that they just add a "2" to the name and people think it's some sort of new longer bigger boat, they just updated the interior & helm layout that was not as popular as other manufacturers designs were with new buyers.