Risk of capsizing a Lagoon 380 and reefing

[clakiep]

Besides all the good advice be aware of the relative-wind-problem : You are sailing downwind with a good speed - 8 or 10 knots - the wind on deck and around your neck
is also only a light breeze around 15 Knots and all feels very cosy. The moment you change course coming up it suddenly blows with 25 to 30 Knots, plus the centrifugal force of making a curve.....and good thing o try out on a small cat to get the feel.

Capt. Claus - ocean tramp of the eighties (last century)

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by LagoonJim

I've never had my 500 in anything near these conditions, but a great read for anyone interested in what it takes to flip a 380/38:

https://www.soundingsonline.com/news...e-proves-fatal

No mention of a drogue, or trying to drag spare lines/sheets as a last effort.

Why do you think they chose to be outside on the net and not in the hull, somewhat protected?

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Reefing downwind???
How? ...

well naturally you need to turn into the wind (likely with engines on), which can be traumatic if left too long. that is why you need to reef EARLY if downwind - most especially in a building breeze

cheers,

[swanpol]

ANY MULTIHULL CAN CAPSIZE¡¡¡

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by swanpol

ANY MULTIHULL CAN CAPSIZE¡¡¡

Ahem:

“ Tom Lack felt the design was so stable and safe that years ago Lack authorized a £10,000 reward to anybody that could document a Catalac with one hull out of the water. To date, no one has claimed that reward.”

https://www.catamaransite.com/refere...ck_catamarans/

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by swanpol

ANY MULTIHULL VESSEL CAN CAPSIZE¡¡¡

there, fixed it for you

cheers,

[LagoonJim]

Originally Posted by earthbm

Why do you think they chose to be outside on the net and not in the hull, somewhat protected?

I've spent some time floating underneath my Lagoon thinking about this very subject.

My best guess is in those conditions they couldn't stay put. Smooth curved gelcoat. I think the craziest part of story is how the skipper didn't wash overboard without being jacked up!

Almost all suggestions made so far are great, obtuse comments aside.

One poster suggested reefing main downwind to be difficult. Though I found that to be true on boats I've sailed/owned in the past, I find it doable on the 500, and the rig is substantially larger than a 380.

Bermuda rigs are the same cat or mono, so as JustMurph said ball bearing cars probably make the big difference, plus blocks on the leech for jiffy reef lines.

[jipcho]

I was one of a crew of 3 sailing a custom built Conser 47 foot cat in 1997, when I think we came pretty close to flipping her. We were in the final days of sailing a few hundred NM from New York City to the US Virgin Islands. Our cat was built for speed, and during the voyage, our autopilot recorded speeds over the ground of over 30 knots one night! Our near capsize occurred while the skipper and I were attempting to fix the broken autopilot in heavy seas and gusty winds in the infamous Mona Passage between Hispanola and Puerto Rico. Our third crewman was manning the helm, but paying more attention to us than his task. We were hit beam on by a gust and a wave simultaneously, throwing all three of us to the lee side of the vessel. We heard the sounds of loose gear flying around the cabin, and though there were no serious injuries I was hurt from my fall. It felt as if the boat had heeled more than a cat should (which is never), and the lee bow was certainly buried momentarily. Luckily she recovered, righted herself, and we finally decided to reef. Lesson learned. Our vessel was light, built without any cabins for guests. She was built for fast day sails, not for cruising. A cruising or charter type of vessel like your Lagoon should never experience this, but the lessons of reefing early, remaining vigilant at the helm, and sailing for comfort rather than maximizing speed are relevant nonetheless.

[rickwest]

I sailed my 380 S2 across the Pacific used the same rules as my 39ft monohull, wind over 20kts I reef, sqall lines I drop the sails. I avoided all and any storms my wife was a landlubber.
I never had a single issue, never lifted a hull. I always felt if I did something stupid I would get demasted not flipped.
I felt 100% safe in my 380 1000 miles offshore
I never had a wave come over my bow, cats ride over the waves not into them.
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions about your 380 I have own mine since 2015

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by LagoonJim

I've spent some time floating underneath my Lagoon thinking about this very subject.

My best guess is in those conditions they couldn't stay put. Smooth curved gelcoat. I think the craziest part of story is how the skipper didn't wash overboard without being jacked up!

Almost all suggestions made so far are great, obtuse comments aside.

One poster suggested reefing main downwind to be difficult. Though I found that to be true on boats I've sailed/owned in the past, I find it doable on the 500, and the rig is substantially larger than a 380.

Bermuda rigs are the same cat or mono, so as JustMurph said ball bearing cars probably make the big difference, plus blocks on the leech for jiffy reef lines.

On the 380 the shrouds are that far aft that you cannot put boom far enough out without sail touching shrouds to sail dead downwind, 150-160degrees was max that worked on the one we chartered in Greece. So reefing then makes even less sense as it’s not raised anyhow or it’s in the 2nd reef anyhow to provide stability but not propulsion, that’s the job of a downwind sail or in worst case the Genua via a block on the middle cleat, this you reef late with 25 or even 30kn.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by schilke

Cheers guys, that's reassuring! How much does your cat lean when you push it? I read somewhere that a 10% angle is already considered dangerously close to capsize. 10 is not much and worries me.

At around 15 degrees heeking a cat starts losing form stability.

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by Icarus

At around 15 degrees heeking a cat starts losing form stability.

Fixed it for you.

"At around 15 degrees of heel a cat starts losing righting arm (or righting moment)" is also acceptable.

[swanpol]

ADVICE,,, PAINT YOUR MAST WITH ANTIFOULING,,,

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

If you have decent ball bearing cars for your main, you can reef down wind.

I'm not sure what the rest of your post said?


Yep. You're on the money there.

What a complete and utter mess. There is a safe and easy method to reef downwind that does not require any graunching of winches and puts very little strain on the sail gear.

Reefing downwind, can be used upwind as well.

The method is best achieved with a double line reefing system with separate leech and luff lines.

1. Centre the mainsheet.

2. Let the mainsheet out until the main is just touching the shrouds.

3. Pull in the leech line causing the boom to lift. (typically about 1/3rd of the distance between reef points). This effectively scandalises the main.

4. Lock off the leech line.

5. Take in the main sheet at the same time as easing the main halyard. The mainsheet will pull the boom down, the sail away from the shrouds and act as a lever to pull the main down.

6. Take in the luff line and lock it off.

7. Repeat the process until the reef is set.

Depending on the distance between reef points and the strength of the wind you may have to repeat the process, typically three times but maybe four or five times if you get caught with too much wind or very gusty conditions.

Because there is always wind in the main there is no flogging of the sail. The sail is pulled away from the shrouds as it comes down so no chaffing. The boom acts as a massive lever so very little force is required.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by earthbm

As for reefing when winds pick up while you are running downwind, it can be hairy, but probably won’t be fatal. My playbook:
1. Turn to 175° TWA and douse/furl your foresail.
2. Head up to maybe 140° TWA. Dump the main sheet as much as you can without breaking the battens against the shrouds. Doing it with the sheet rather than traveller twists off the top more, thus reducing the capsize moment more effectively.
3. Turn into the wind — not too fast in order to reduce the centrifugal force — but fast enough to not let the main get powered up again as your BSP decline causes AWA to rise. Time the start at or just before the crest of the wave.

In practice it is risky because that centered main can get caught and turn you into the wind. Keep the headsail powered to make it less likely.

I would recommend trying furling the genoa when running square. I never furl a genoa flapping as I can't handle the poor thing getting flogged. I would assume your tri is reasonably fast. Have you considered another way? My fav for when caught out downwind and needing to drop the main now is

- Furl genoa on square
- ease main out all the way
- head up to 80 degrees true in one smooth arc
- as soon as my cat reaches 80 degrees pull main down totally (You could pull down to preset haylard mark for reefing too
- bearaway before boat speed has dropped

(I have only had to do this once - when I had to drop the main. The time for me to head up, furl the main and bear away was probably about 30 seconds solo - the main was pretty untidy when I first bore away but I can clean it up running square.)

I agree about the main being on the centreline. I don't like doing this at all, my cat has nice big rudders but I can feel them being loaded up when I have the main on too tight. I prefer to reef downwind by going as fast as possible with the genoa out , or kite and screecher out, to reduce apparent and then pull the luff down by hand every time she surfs (and reduces apparent), taking up the leech line at the same time.

cheers

Phil