Risk of capsizing a Lagoon 380 and reefing

[CaptainRivet]

Why messing with a big mainsail downwind?
My solution to downwind 8-35kn from 150 till 210 degrees.

One line to deal with and sorts out itself and greatly reduce the power the autopilot usage. Additionally if caught in cross swell and you surfing down a wave and then you get slapped and thrown of course comming from a wave 45 till 90 degrees of the one before that round sail sorts this out too, saved my ass more then once. And the best this 8m one cost me 700Euro, now 1000Euro for the 10m one which does 5 till 25kn.
Getting it down, simply bear of 30-40 degrees, whinch in the halyard so it doesn't fall into water and then get genua out. The roundsail is in the windshade of genua and falls down onto genua and slides on deck. As easy as that and done alone in 30kn of wind and 4m waves.
The 8m i then secure center on the middle cleat with a soft shackle and wrap sail around the shroud and secure it with 4-5 velcro straps. Need it again, just bear of 30 degrees, take away the velcro straps and disconnect the center of sail from the middle cleat and off it flies, then back on downwind course.
Pack up its super small, fits in an normal shopping bag 40xmx40cmx15cm.

Last crossing in januar this year on my buddy boat mono 44ft Dufour we used the 10m, up 10nm after cabo verde and down 20nm before antigua, 2200nm with this sail and the best no rolling anymore on a mono.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Why messing with a big mainsail downwind?
My solution to downwind 8-35kn from 150 till 210 degrees.

One line to deal with and sorts out itself and greatly reduce the power the autopilot usage. Additionally if caught in cross swell and you surfing down a wave and then you get slapped and thrown of course comming from a wave 45 till 90 degrees of the one before that round sail sorts this out too, saved my ass more then once. And the best this 8m one cost me 700Euro, now 1000Euro for the 10m one which does 5 till 25kn.

More info.....

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

More info.....

What do you wanna know additionally?
These are new heavy duty military cargo parachutes where the ropes get modified to be used as downwind sail.

8m diameter is for boats till 10-11t
10m diameter is for boats till 14-15t officially but my experience its in the limits with 13t in >20kn true.

I have 17m mast and with top halyard whinch to mast its about 70cm above deck, just perfect.
My cat is 40ft Lavezzi load up around 8.5-9t.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

What do you wanna know additionally?

Orientation control, deployment, retrieval, manufacturer?


I looked at kits a while ago and the major stumbling block was deployment and retrieval.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Orientation control, deployment, retrieval, manufacturer?


I looked at kits a while ago and the major stumbling block was deployment and retrieval.

I described deployment and retrival already in the fist post. Really easy if you have done it couple of times.
Orientation control, it does all itself. Set your course inbetween 150 and 210 degress downwind with ap and let it sort out.
If wind dies it stays a while up and start to stall and go up again, so you have enough time to get it down. It stays filled and up if dry from approx 5kn wind on.
Light wind you let it out about 15m upfront your cat and let the lower line go out so it flies higher to get more wind, i had it ones the whole 30m bottom line out, so about center about 25m above sea level.
Strong wind you get it closer and lower approx 10m distance and height above sealevel upfront.
Produced and sold by a german boat builder who went around the world 3 times with this sail allready on his 12t ketch.
https://aideenhenry.wixsite.com/petima/downwind-sailing
Ahh i see they have a new 11m version.
I have T8 and T10 but fly 90% of time T8

Absolute nobrainer for a 1000Euro...not in any way related or get any provisons, i just love it. On a cat super easy to retrieve and deploy, on a mono a bit tricky but also manageable.
I originally got it to simply reduce rolling when downwind sailing with my old longkeeler ketch but its even better on a cat, especially from the handling. Have it now since 4 years and won't hesitate a second to get it again or replaced when damaged.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I described deployment and retrival already in the fist post. Really easy if you have done it couple of times.
Orientation control, it does all itself. Set your course inbetween 150 and 210 degress downwind with ap and let it sort out.
If wind dies it stays a while up and start to stall and go up again, so you have enough time to get it down. It stays filled and up if dry from approx 5kn wind on.
Light wind you let it out about 15m upfront your cat and let the lower line go out so it flies higher to get more wind, i had it ones the whole 30m bottom line out, so about center about 25m above sea level.
Strong wind you get it closer and lower approx 10m distance and height above sealevel upfront.
Produced and sold by a german boat builder who went around the world 3 times with this sail allready on his 12t ketch.
https://aideenhenry.wixsite.com/petima/downwind-sailing
Ahh i see they have a new 11m version.
I have T8 and T10 but fly 90% of time T8

Absolute nobrainer for a 1000Euro...not in any way related or get any provisons, i just love it. On a cat super easy to retrieve and deploy, on a mono a bit tricky but also manageable.

Couldn't understand the one line. but there are actually 2 one from the bow and another from the mast head. Assume the mast head line just supports the chute and stops it going in the sea. This must have to be really long when the chute is deployed.



Is this the same parachute that Dama tried? I thought they had abandoned it in favour of a big furling headsail.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Couldn't understand the one line. but there are actually 2 one from the bow and another from the mast head. Assume the mast head line just supports the chute and stops it going in the sea. This must have to be really long when the chute is deployed.



Is this the same parachute that Dama tried? I thought they had abandoned it in favour of a big furling headsail.

No idea about dama but i would never replace that with a furling sail...costs are 5x for less performance and worse handling. don't know a furling downwind sail that can do 8-35kn...i flew 35kn and it didn't feel stressed or anything so 40kn is definitely realistic.
But from around 30kn on the genua on the middle cleat is easier and saver to handle and in case there is even comming more wind.

Yes its 2 lines, the spi halyard and the lower which i ran via the bow roller. For me a top line is always there, i only count the bottom lines i have to deal with...thats why one on T8 and 4 on the parasailor.
My spi halyard is 40m, mast 17 and 3m for handling so about 15-20m out in light wind.
The lower 30m and about max 15-25m till used in light. The upper defines mainly how much upfront
The boat it flies, with the lower you regulate height and also angle of the parachute. Get ot higher lengthen lower line, to lower get it in. Top line is set once and kept.
The only tricky thing is if it comes down to get the topline to the mark that it does fell into water, as soon as you have that nothing can happen anymore.

My downwind strategy is
4/5kn till 15kn 105sqm parasailor (really lightwind sailing
10 till 35kn T8 roundsail
30kn till 45kn genua on middle cleat with a block.
>45kn no sail and prepare lines or drogue...

For unplanned or shorter distance lightwind downwind sailing I use the T10 roundsail 5-20kn as much easier to rig then the huge parasailer with 5 lines.
The lower line via bow roler is superfast rigged, spi halyard , connect sail with 2 dynmea soft shackle and ready to fly, 3 min its done.

[JustMurph]

What's the performance like?
What's your boat speed in say 20 knots true windspeed, dead down wind.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

What's the performance like?
What's your boat speed in say 20 knots true windspeed, dead down wind.

Around 8-9kn with a 40ft Lavezzi but with giantic 17x15 3 blade fix props because of 2x50hp instead 2x20hp which have 12x11 2 blade props. The props were seriously braking. Now switched to 3 blade Flexofold in 18x13 but didn't use the T8 with it till know but expect +2kn.
Its not a performance sail due to wide range 8-40kn, i could use T10 or 11 to definitely gain 1kn or more.
T10 with 6-8kn around 3,5-4kn SOG, 105sqm parasailor is 4.5-6kn in this conditions.

T10 WITH 12t dufour mono 44 loaded till top with provision during crossing with 4 people 15-20kn around 7-8kn

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I would recommend trying furling the genoa when running square. I never furl a genoa flapping as I can't handle the poor thing getting flogged. I would assume your tri is reasonably fast. Have you considered another way? My fav for when caught out downwind and needing to drop the main now is

- Furl genoa on square
- ease main out all the way
- head up to 80 degrees true in one smooth arc
- as soon as my cat reaches 80 degrees pull main down totally (You could pull down to preset haylard mark for reefing too
- bearaway before boat speed has dropped

(I have only had to do this once - when I had to drop the main. The time for me to head up, furl the main and bear away was probably about 30 seconds solo - the main was pretty untidy when I first bore away but I can clean it up running square.)

I agree about the main being on the centreline. I don't like doing this at all, my cat has nice big rudders but I can feel them being loaded up when I have the main on too tight. I prefer to reef downwind by going as fast as possible with the genoa out , or kite and screecher out, to reduce apparent and then pull the luff down by hand every time she surfs (and reduces apparent), taking up the leech line at the same time.

cheers

Phil

When you quoted my post the key part was not there somehow:

Can also (in theory) do it downwind by centering the traveller, and sheeting the main, then dropping the main halyard one foot at a time and then winching the reef clew (all the sail power is through that clew, so need to time with the sail swinging forward in waves). In practice it is risky because that centered main can get caught and turn you into the wind. Keep the headsail powered to make it less likely.

When turning upwind (my preferred method) the headsail should be fueled/dropped completely to help the turn.

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

What a complete and utter mess. There is a safe and easy method to reef downwind that does not require any graunching of winches and puts very little strain on the sail gear.

Reefing downwind, can be used upwind as well.

The method is best achieved with a double line reefing system with separate leech and luff lines.

1. Centre the mainsheet.

2. Let the mainsheet out until the main is just touching the shrouds.

3. Pull in the leech line causing the boom to lift. (typically about 1/3rd of the distance between reef points). This effectively scandalises the main.

4. Lock off the leech line.

5. Take in the main sheet at the same time as easing the main halyard. The mainsheet will pull the boom down, the sail away from the shrouds and act as a lever to pull the main down.

6. Take in the luff line and lock it off.

7. Repeat the process until the reef is set.

Depending on the distance between reef points and the strength of the wind you may have to repeat the process, typically three times but maybe four or five times if you get caught with too much wind or very gusty conditions.

Because there is always wind in the main there is no flogging of the sail. The sail is pulled away from the shrouds as it comes down so no chaffing. The boom acts as a massive lever so very little force is required.

That’s interesting. So effectively you are saying that the intermediate step of easing the main/taking up slack on reef clew is low effort? I’ll try that!

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

downwind sail that can do 8-35kn...i flew 35kn and it didn't feel stressed or anything so 40kn is definitely realistic.

Using a 1.5 drag coefficient (typical for parachutes) an 8m diameter round parachute should generate a force of just over 1.5tonnes at 35kt AWS. Assuming you were running 10kt BSP dead downwind it would be 0.78t of force at 25kt AWS.

Do these numbers agree with what you felt?

You say that it can be flown in 5kt. That’s under 70 pounds of force — enough to keep it inflated? What kind of material is this that can take 2t of force yet stay inflated at 5kt?

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Around 8-9kn with a 40ft Lavezzi but with giantic 17x15 3 blade fix props because of 2x50hp instead 2x20hp which have 12x11 2 blade props. The props were seriously braking. Now switched to 3 blade Flexofold in 18x13 but didn't use the T8 with it till know but expect +2kn.
Its not a performance sail due to wide range 8-40kn, i could use T10 or 11 to definitely gain 1kn or more.
T10 with 6-8kn around 3,5-4kn SOG, 105sqm parasailor is 4.5-6kn in this conditions.

T10 WITH 12t dufour mono 44 loaded till top with provision during crossing with 4 people 15-20kn around 7-8kn

Edit: My bad! These are 8 and 10m DIAMETER! Not area.
So 50m^2 and 80m^2!

Makes sense now! Interesting option.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by earthbm

Using a 1.5 drag coefficient (typical for parachutes) an 8m diameter round parachute should generate a force of just over 1.5tonnes at 35kt AWS. Assuming you were running 10kt BSP dead downwind it would be 0.78t of force at 25kt AWS.

Do these numbers agree with what you felt?

You say that it can be flown in 5kt. That’s under 70 pounds of force — enough to keep it inflated? What kind of material is this that can take 2t of force yet stay inflated at 5kt?

these are military cargo parachute, they put 4xT10 and throw a 30t tank from the sky
the T10 stays up in 5kn, the T8 need around 7-8kn

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Edit: My bad! These are 8 and 10m DIAMETER! Not area.
So 50m^2 and 80m^2!

Makes sense now! Interesting option.

yes they are genius, my favorite downwind sail. also good for autopilot, much less power needed as its 10-15m upfront the cat and no rounding up at the end of a wave possible.


simple, small, easy to rig and cheap if you screw it up.
just looked at some videos T8 dead downwind at 170 degrees with 18-20KN AWS 7,7-8,2kn SOG with giant 17x15 3-blade fixed props that were seriously braking on a 40ft Lavezzi with 2x50hp engines+liveaboard loaded 8.5-9t with all gear incl. around 350l water and 180l diesel.