S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

That does not seem a comment that should be made by a moderator. It is a personal comment, out of topic, seems to me against the rules of the forum, it is not substantiated, has the only finality to diminish the credibility of a member of this forum that contrary to you, regarding what you are saying, has the care to substantiate what he posts.

Oh right. Like the polars that were made using only main and jib? Or the 5'6 draught of the barramundi cat? Or your comments about this year's surf to city race?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

He simply answered questions and put propositions forward without making it personal. .

Dunno about that old mate, he inferred I was lieing when I said the Surf to City was upwind. He said I had no knowledge of of what he calls Baja motorsport or proper motorsport tactics, he was entirely dismissive of any alternative point of view. We had robust discussions on some obscure legal issues, we didn't get personal with each other, well maybe you did a bit when you suggested I got my knowledge from TV, but overall it was a good robust discussion. And we arrived at a conclusion.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I agree. How else does one find out information about multihull boats other than watching videos, asking owners, test sail, reading articles and discussing the differences?

Although apparently people who OWN multihulls are not welcome in this discussion?

[monte]

Good post RC, except maybe the last paragraph I also agree that Poluxs posts are appreciated by most of the forum and well, you just can't please all the people all the time. Not that I agree with every word or take exception to anything in particular. Occasionally I'll disagree or clarify some (in my view) misconceptions as I would anyone.
Regarding the cold beer comment, I must admit not having an ice maker onboard and having to tell a visitor we don't have ice, or offering a coffee then explaining we just have Nescafé instant tends to be much more embarrassing than explaining our choice of yacht.
On topic of mono v cat, where the hell are the tri sailors? They always seem to evade the discussions. Are they halfway between or just sitting back enjoying their rum, smugly laughing at the silly debate of who is faster and who is more sea-kindly...

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Factor

Dunno about that old mate, he inferred I was lieing when I said the Surf to City was upwind. He said I had no knowledge of of what he calls Baja motorsport or proper motorsport tactics, he was entirely dismissive of any alternative point of view. We had robust discussions on some obscure legal issues, we didn't get personal with each other, well maybe you did a bit when you suggested I got my knowledge from TV, but overall it was a good robust discussion. And we arrived at a conclusion. (yes, and to my embarrassment I was wrong )

Factor, when someone disagrees with you, it is NOT calling or 'inferring' you a liar. It's simply pointing out he doesn't agree with you. You have accused me of the same thing once before. Even if both of us are in the same piece of water at the same time and observe the same thing happening, but we see things differently, that's not calling or inferring one is a lier (which is a personal attack to do that). It's simply a difference of opinion.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by monte

Good post RC, except maybe the last paragraph I also agree that Poluxs posts are appreciated by most of the forum and well, you just can't please all the people all the time. Not that I agree with every word or take exception to anything in particular. Occasionally I'll disagree or clarify some (in my view) misconceptions as I would anyone.
Regarding the cold beer comment, I must admit not having an ice maker onboard and having to tell a visitor we don't have ice, or offering a coffee then explaining we just have Nescafé instant tends to be much more embarrassing than explaining our choice of yacht.
On topic of mono v cat, where the hell are the tri sailors? They always seem to evade the discussions. Are they halfway between or just sitting back enjoying their rum, smugly laughing at the silly debate of who is faster and who is more sea-kindly...

seriously your really not committed to the cruising thing are you

[Factor]

Rustic - I said it was an upwind race

Someone else said

The race you posted is not only an upwind race but a race with mixed winds

thats not a disagreement or an alternative view, its a diametrically opposed position that says my data is wrong and thus my conclusions are wrong. Well that independent data says no - it was an upwind race. This isn't pedantry, its accuracy.

Oh and your quoting of my message above includes something I didn't say.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

..

, Goodness me, it was not mixed winds, NOT mixed winds, it was constant Northerly (ne and nw) - this is not a guess it is the reality. This is not about what you presume, it is WHAT happened last Saturday and for the slow boats, Sunday. It was on the nose the whole way,
No - no it doesn't it was, and I will type slowly so you can understand AN UPWIND RACE THE WHOLE WAY. You know this how? ...

I am amazed that you can simply disagree with the facts half way round the world regarding metrology

Here is the DATA from the Bureau of Meteorology for Cape Moreton for the Day of the race, these aren't ill informed guesses they are facts. The various races started around 9 to 9.30 am

You mean, a race course that has this configuration:


And anywhere on the race course they went upwind

You mean the wind was changing all the time for all the boats while they were on the race course? When they were sailing North or South the wind changed several times on the race course to opposite directions?

Originally Posted by Factor

Wrong, it is used for Cruising, but races every chance it gets.

What is wrong? I said that the Mojo cat was used mostly for racing. Did not say that was not used for cruising otherwise I would have said that is used only for racing.

The Mojo 3 crew defines itself as an Amateur Sportive team and I don't believe an Amateur sportive team has as objective cruising. That dose not mean, off course, that they do not cruise out of the regatta season.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Factor, when someone disagrees with you, it is NOT calling or 'inferring' you a liar. It's simply pointing out he doesn't agree with you. You have accused me of the same thing once before. Even if both of us are in the same piece of water at the same time and observe the same thing happening, but we see things differently, that's not calling or inferring one is a lier (which is a personal attack to do that). It's simply a difference of opinion.

So how about when someone who claims to "substantiate everything he posts" makes statements that are simply not true?

Like the Barramundi cat having much deeper draught than it really has. Or polar diagrams being based on just main and jib, when they are not.

How about when someone (by implication maybe) accuses you of fiddling with your instruments to make your boat appear to sail better? Is THAT not personal?

It seems it's ok to make completely false statements here. It only becomes a problem when the falsehood is pointed out.

Where's the sense in that? How does that make a forum useful to anyone? Are falsehoods supposed to be allowed to stand unquestioned, so people can accept them as being facts? Is that what this forum is supposed to be about?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The thing is, you're a polite person with a monohull. So you wouldn't denigrate another person's boat, simply because it has the "wrong" number of hulls.

But the fact is, plenty of people will. And they'll sometimes do it to your face. We've had people tell us cat's can't cross oceans. Even though thousands have. We've had people tell us of course, that our boat can't sail to windward. Always fun if there's a windward sail next day... of course then they'll claim we motored. (100% of the time?)

There are people who absolutely blindly hate multihulls. Never been on one (and never will if they can help it.) but hate them anyway.
You possibly never see this, because you own a "Proper boat".

But it exists.

Sure, I agree with you. Plenty of misconceptions around on the internet but I would say you would be right if you were posting on sailnet, not here. Surely there would be some that would say that and I would be the first to laugh about those comments.

There are enough knowledge and enough respected members to disregard the danger of that to happen.

Not different of those guys that still claim that performance monohulls are dangerous for cruising or that modern keels should not be used in cruising boats because they are dangerous, that only encapsulated keels should be considered and are safe, or that mass production cruisers, Beneteaus and Jeanneaus are not fit for offshore sailing or cruising oceans.

Yes you still hear all that and from time to time you will hear a guy saying that cats are dangerous, that's a forum with freedom of speech but what counts is the opinion of the ones that know what they are saying and regarding that as I said, many respected and knowledgeable folks around that are the ones that most will listen and the ones that contribute to form an opinion.

And now I really have a plane to catch even if the flight was delayed : Strike of the French air controllers...I hope it will finish till tomorrow :-(

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Although apparently people who OWN multihulls are not welcome in this discussion?

"Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post

I agree. How else does one find out information about multihull boats other than watching videos, asking owners, test sail, reading articles and discussing the differences?"

I know we're not supposed to get personal on this forum, but you and Factor seem to have a real problem with trying to stir up trouble with certain form members. All I wrote earlier is that I enjoyed the Delos videos and the one posted by Polux, and that our cruising friends who owned mono and multihulls all seemed to enjoy their choices... and then the two of you follow up by continuously needling and pestering both Polux and I into an argument.

I have not written anything provocative on this thread, yet the two of you have written over twenty posts attempting to instigate an argument. Do either of you actually have any cruising friends out there? Real or virtual?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

Originally Posted by Factor
. . .Sadly Polux seems to need to disagree for the sake of it.. .




That does not seem a comment that should be made by a moderator. It is a personal comment, out of topic, seems to me against the rules of the forum, it is not substantiated, has the only finality to diminish the credibility of a member of this forum that contrary to you, regarding what you are saying, has the care to substantiate what he posts.

Ok, maybe you were kidding, hard to say on internet, but then you should have posted a smile.

I am pissed, the ambiance is a little tense. I got a post edited and I cannot understand why. What was edited was on the subject of this tread and it was a call of attention for some things that was said by the owner of that Barramundi regarding an interview the guys of Delos have made with him about the subject of this thread and some comments about it.

This interview:

All that I posted was or directly regarding what was said on that interview or on the previous one. Was edited without any explanation and I truly cannot understand what was there that is against the rules of this forum.

I apologize. I intended nothing negative whatsoever. It was intended rather affectionately, and if that didn't come through, I really apologize.

I am trying to promote harmony here, and unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Lizzy Belle]

Wow.

Thought I'd ask a quick question, but I'll go have a chat with one of the (only two) cat owners here. With them, we can discuss all pros and cons of pretty much any boat, cat or mono, without issues.

Here, not so much ...

[Rustic Charm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor
Dunno about that old mate, he inferred I was lieing when I said the Surf to City was upwind. He said I had no knowledge of of what he calls Baja motorsport or proper motorsport tactics, he was entirely dismissive of any alternative point of view. We had robust discussions on some obscure legal issues, we didn't get personal with each other, well maybe you did a bit when you suggested I got my knowledge from TV, but overall it was a good robust discussion. And we arrived at a conclusion. (yes, and to my embarrassment I was wrong )

Originally Posted by Factor

Rustic -

Oh and your quoting of my message above includes something I didn't say.

Just want to point out, so that there is no confusion, I Rustic Charm, was admitting in the above quote that I Rustic Charm was the one that was wrong. Hope that is clear now. I should have put it in red when I quoted it. My humble apologies.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

So how about when someone who claims to "substantiate everything he posts" makes statements that are simply not true?

Like the Barramundi cat having much deeper draught than it really has. Or polar diagrams being based on just main and jib, when they are not.

How about when someone (by implication maybe) accuses you of fiddling with your instruments to make your boat appear to sail better? Is THAT not personal?

It seems it's ok to make completely false statements here. It only becomes a problem when the falsehood is pointed out.

Where's the sense in that? How does that make a forum useful to anyone? Are falsehoods supposed to be allowed to stand unquestioned, so people can accept them as being facts? Is that what this forum is supposed to be about?

What are you accusing me of? Go back and you will see that I had rectified both things as soon as I found out I was mistaken. Regarding the Barramundi is not difficult it is just some posts back, so easy that I will re-post it here:

Originally Posted by Polux

You are right. I saw those specifications somewhere but they obviously belonged to the VIK 144 that has dagerboards, not to the Barramundi..

The Barramundi 470 has keels with 3'7".
Here an interesting article about keels and daggerboards by Eric Lerouge, the designer of that cat:
Cat Twin Keel
...

Regarding accusing me of personal attacks to you namely to have said that I accused you of" fiddling with your instruments to make your boat appear to sail better" is a grave accusation that needs to be backed up. Please do so or retire that.