Sailing vs Power Catamaran - Time, Cost and Enjoyment

[a64pilot]

From just a monetary perspective that’s a pretty easy question to answer, if sailing was cheaper, then you would see Commercial sailing vessels, and you don’t.
Yes I know scheduling and speed has a lot to do with that, but operating expenses does too.

However I doubt that you will cover as many miles as you think, and I’d suspect that you won’t pay $5 a gl on fuel on average either.
You’ll do what most do, leave the US full of fuel and come back low on fuel.

Although as has been said if it’s only five years, it’s possible to not spend much on sails and running rigging.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

From just a monetary perspective that’s a pretty easy question to answer, if sailing was cheaper, then you would see Commercial sailing vessels, and you don’t.
Yes I know scheduling and speed has a lot to do with that, but operating expenses does too.

However I doubt that you will cover as many miles as you think, and I’d suspect that you won’t pay $5 a gl on fuel on average either.
You’ll do what most do, leave the US full of fuel and come back low on fuel.

Although as has been said if it’s only five years, it’s possible to not spend much on sails and running rigging.

Even a freshman Econ 101 student would note that economies of scale is the key factor. A normal oil tanker is 1,000 feet and carries a crew of 24. Maybe there are some sailboats 300 feet long but even with high tec rigs there is no way they could be sailed with a crew that small; not to mention the amount of cargo they could carry. While the crew on a commercial cargo ship does have to have a minimum skill set it requires a significantly larger skill set to sail even a small boat. Sailing a 300 footer would require real skill.

As for maintaining a boat we all know that it requires a lot more to maintain a sailboat once it gets say 50 feet or so than it does to maintain a 30-35 foot sailboat; not to mention the forces are much greater. I shutter to think the forces on even a 100 foot sail boat.

Back in my racing days there were guys who were known a breakers; they were really hard on boats. They never reefed early, they would always bash to windward, and always seemed to be crossing the Gulf Stream when a cold front was pushing up square waves with short periods. There were also guys like me that waited for the best weather window. I was headed to Bimini and spent almost a week at Rodriguez while a buddy of mine left in almost a dead calm and motored directly to Nassau. He burned more gas (we both have Seawind cats) on that passage than I did on the whole cruise.

In addition to where you are sailing your sailing habits also dictate where the break even point is for power v sail being cheaper.

[mcarthur]

Originally Posted by sailhand

We have a very efficient hull in our 44ft Oram catamaran. With twin 20hp diesels we achieve 13.2 knots average top speed in calm still water and run in both directions and averaged. We usually cruise on one motor and before we rigged the boat we used 1.25 litres per hour at 6.8 knots. This is from 5 years of logs meticulously maintained by the admiralty.

Great firsthand information sailhand!

Can I say - and I'm not doubting you at all - that those L/nm figures at speed are absolutely incredible. Like the OP and weight, they are far far beyond what is normal for pure power cats! You get 0.18 litres per nm. Noone in my studies could get anywhere near that for purposebuilt power cats. The best I could find at 6.8kn was 0.4 for the Lagoon 43 then 0.6 for the FP Maryland 37, most are above 1.
While most powercats don't aim at an average or max of 6-7kn, more around the 9-11kn average meaning larger engines, your numbers are still very impressive!

[jmh2002]

The point that seems to be being missed here is that sails, running rigging, and standing rigging have a cost too, both in maintenance, as well as in replacement.

So as I said earlier, for each hour of sailing you need to be considering a cost for wear and tear on the sails, and on the rigging.

But from a sailing perspective I only see a lot of discussion about how much not to motor, and that is not really the point (neither is choosing a good weather window, being happy to wait, etc, etc, which can all be done when motoring too).

In some ways you can look at it in advance, from new, just like with fuel, eg:

- I buy XXX litres of fuel at X price, and I know I can cruise for X hours until I need to buy more fuel.

- I buy a new main and jib at X price, and I know that I can cruise for X hours until I need to buy new sails.

There was some simple insight from @sailhand's post:

Originally Posted by sailhand

...from 5 years of logs meticulously maintained by the admiralty. We averaged just under 2000 miles per annum travelling from grafton to cardwell and everywhere in between on the queensland coast. We spent a total of $3562 total on fuel and that includes dinghy fuel. That's just over $700 a year and 365 litres of diesel.

In 2010 after an extensive refit we relaunched with a rig... We rigged the boat as cheaply as possible and still spent over 12k. 9 years later we are ready to replace our rigging.

So there are some numbers to start working with already, although we need to clarify what the 12k included, and what 'replace our rigging' will include (all sails? all standing rigging? all running rigging? etc).

On a racing sailboat this is easily noticeable. You really understand how many regattas, or seasons, certain sails will for last for and plan for their cost of replacement each year.

On a cruising boat it's less clear, but can still be measured. Eg: in the past when doing summers in New England and winters in the Caribbean it was very noticeable how much wear the passage added to the mainsail. It may have been equal a whole season of cruising down island.

And that's because it was 24/7 use for an extended period. Not just a few hours at a time day sailing, where you don't notice an immediate difference.

It is more tricky and more individual though because some boats are harder on sails than others. Different sails last different periods. Different sailcloth will change the calculation too, both in cost as well as longevity, etc, etc.

And you can still sail, somehow, with an old, tired, worn out sail, but you can't motor with no fuel.

Fuel is mostly the same and you mostly burn the same per hour.

But for a fair comparison all of the sailing costs need to be amortised properly.

It's not correct to say 'I went sailing today and it cost nothing'.

[CatNewBee]

We are sailing every day as ongoing liveaboards, and it costs what it takes to keep moving and enjoying it.

Boats are not known as cash saving machines anyway, and not a business case, except when chartering. Boats wear and tear at the dock too, even on the hard.

So the question for us is only how to treat her well, so we can afford the lifestyle longer, and quiet moving under sails is soo much better then running the engine, it keeps us busy and we end up in places we did not know exist, just because of the barely predictable weather.

Motoring is to get from A to B, sailing is enjoying the way between A and some letter of the alphabet, including A sometimes.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

SNIP

It is more tricky and more individual though because some boats are harder on sails than others. Different sails last different periods. Different sailcloth will change the calculation too, both in cost as well as longevity, etc, etc.


SNIP

Any time I have a guest who I let take the wheel I always worry that they may head up too far and cause the screecher to switch sides causing the sail to rub against the mast.

Even as a kid my Dad use to get on me when I would let a sail luff as that greatly increases the wear and tear on a sail compared to when the sail is drawing properly.

Keeping too much sail up in heavy winds can easily blow out a sail even if it is only for a short time during a pop up storm or a line squall.

How fast a sail wears out, like most things on a boat, is more a factor of the nut behind the wheel than any thing else.

I am not sure who is claiming sailing a boat is free. My point is that the cost per mile you get out of a sail is more a function of the skill of those sailing the boat than anything else. Someone who does not know what they are doing can wear out a sail on a single passage. Someone who waits for the best weather window and trims the sail correctly will greatly lengthen the life of a sail.

As an aside the same is true for motors. I always start my motors, let them idle till the get to operating temperature (not just for long life but also to feel confident that they will not stall on me as soon as I increase the throttle) and maintain them on a regular basis. Also I start them up ever two, three, or four weeks even when I am at the dock and run them for 15-20 minutes or so.

[Chotu]

This thread is a godsend for me. Thanks to all the posters and the OCD Admiral for keeping such detailed records.

There are 3 factors coming into play for me.

1: I don't have a rig, sails, chainplates, winches, traveler or a crossbeam/seagull striker at the bows yet. These represent one of the largest expenses there is for the boat. Paying fot all your sailing miles up front.

2: I enjoy the journey a little while underway by sail. It's nice. It's fun. It's great when conditions are perfect like on a run. You can get somewhere and relax while doing it. However, 9 times out of 10 there isn't enough wind or there is so much wind the seas are rough and you're getting thrown around. The conditions are seldom right for comfortable sailing. So I end up motoring. A lot. I also prefer to be at the destination instead of traveling there. The traveling is something I put up with to get places. It's not the fun part. The fun part is having the solitude and peace of a nice anchorage along with the ability to go ashore and explore.

3: choosing a different sort of weather window. Typically I look at the right winds and sea state to get in some good sailing. That's few and far between. Imagine how many more passages you'd make if you only had to look for a smoother sea state as your weather requirement.


I had already been considering finishing the cat as a power cat and this is really helping me make the decision. It feels awful to ruin what is one of the best sailing cats by making it a power cat. The younger me would be disgusted. However, looking realistically at how I use boats and what's important to me, it's just a better fit. Then, of course, it's also cheaper to do power as well. I already have a pair of 30hp outboards. I just need to get higher pitched props.

[Chotu]

There was mention of flying kites. Or chutes from a rig.

Has anyone flown a real kite to handle winds from 90 to 180?? One you can attach to the foredeck?

That's something I'd still like to do as a nice compromise but it seems no one has done it.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by tomfl

I am not sure who is claiming sailing a boat is free. My point is that the cost per mile you get out of a sail is more a function of the skill of those sailing the boat than anything else. .

The cost per mile is also a function of how much sailing you actually do.

Sails deteriorate over time even if you're not using them. If you only sail 100 miles a year, the cost per mile will be pretty high.

Our first set of sails cost $7500Au and lasted around 35,000 miles. (Could have gone a bit further too, but I wanted new sails) Of which we'd have sailed at least 30,000. So the cost per mile was pretty good. Plus some new sheets and halyards.

Motoring we use a bit less than 1/2 litre, say roughly 50 cents worth of fuel per mile.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Y
With sails it is more difficult but for economic comparison purposes you need to do the same. So, for each hour of sailing you need to be adding a cost for wear and tear on the sails, and on the rigging.

Of course that money isn't being paid out directly at the time, but it is being 'billed' against the life of the equipment.
.

Common sense would make that seem true, though the OP only plans to have the boat for 5 years. I bet some people here have sails and rigging older than me.

[CatNewBee]

Was in the queue for getting diesel, a 40ish ft power boat was in front of me, payd for filling her up about 1800EUR my bill was about 350 on a sailing cat after 8 weeks. Well, he makes bigger wakes, but hey, no sails... Guess, he saves a lot.

Fuel prizes in Italy are insane. 1.80EUR per liter, so sailing makes a difference.
For our US friends, it means 8 USD per gallon.

[jmh2002]

Used to Captain a boat that burnt over 4000L per hour - we didn't wait in a queue, the fuel truck(s) came to us - but that doesnt help the discussion here.

Sails and rigging lose some life every time you use them too, so you need to add that loss to your fuel bill for 8 weeks before being able to start making any type of correct economic comparison.

And how many hours and miles done needs to be accounted for too. The boat above was a very fast motoryacht so often it was actually rare to even run a full hour per day. Twenty to thirty minutes was common, but that was already maybe 20-25nm.

I'm not saying that sailing isn't cheaper, it might very well be. But most posts here are not even close to comparing the same real numbers, economically speaking, over time.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Used to Captain a boat that burnt over 4000L per hour - we didn't wait in a queue, the fuel truck(s) came to us - but that doesnt help the discussion here.

Sails and rigging lose some life every time you use them too, so you need to add that loss to your fuel bill for 8 weeks before being able to start making any type of correct economic comparison.

And how many hours and miles done needs to be accounted for too. The boat above was a very fast motoryacht so often it was actually rare to even run a full hour per day. Twenty to thirty minutes was common, but that was already maybe 20-25nm.

I'm not saying that sailing isn't cheaper, it might very well be. But most posts here are not even close to comparing the same real numbers, economically speaking, over time.

It's about fun per buck, isn't it? Some need more for satisfaction. Boats are expensive toys, for every budget.

[jmh2002]

It might be - the owners of the fast motor yacht didn't blink at 2000 euros per day for fuel, because they also spent that for lunch at Pampelonne and then 5000 for dinner in town the same night. And they thought it all money well spent.

But that doesn't really figure in the economic context of x vs x that we are discussing here. My point is there are very little relatively in most of the posts here.

Your 350 vs his 1800 can't really be compared, even in the context of fun per buck, without considering a lot more relevant information (maybe he circumnavigated the whole med on this fuel? or maybe it was fuel for 2 hours? But maybe he went 80nm in 2 hours? etc, etc)

The big picture needs to be considered and understood to make any useful comparisons. Not just random numbers.

[Chotu]

jmh2002: exactly