SHORT LIST of $200k cats

[Fishman]

When I first started looking I also liked the island spirit, great layout, great transom, but bridge deck clearance a bit low?, also some quality issues in threads that I read about elsewhere on this site. Still does not mean they are all bad...This looks like a good one:
http://sailingthecaribbean.com/boatf...FRzTXgodYhP2OA
Anybody know anything about the kelsall 45?

[cbcat]

Nice looking boat with some neat little "extras." I'm still not that familiar with Island Spirits and am curious how they sail. More importantly can you point more towards any threads that discuss quality issues? Anything serious like de-lamination or cracks?

[Crak]

cbcat

I regularly single hand my Athena.
Have also done several short 3-4 day passages.
Only problem is tiredness from lack of sleep, boat very easy to handle, practically sails it's self.
Crak

[tortola7]

Everyone has an opinion out there and all of us come from a different spot. I have been a multihull only skipper for about 9 years doing charter and delivery work East Coast and Caribbean. Sailed pretty much everything under 55 ft. Don't own one, don't need to, don't want to.

Some things are pretty constant. South African boats all have 2 trampolines and are comfortable. Most smaller French boats have 1 tramp and it is net. People all look for different things. All builder think they are building the perfect boat, that boat does not exist. All boats compromise something.

You will spend more time hanging out on these boats than you will spend sailing. You will load these boats with gear and they will slow down. Speed is about the same on all these boats. Solar and wind are must have for cruising, charter companies could save money adding solar.

Items I like
comfort at the helm, access in and out
ability to get to your anchor gear when you foul it
places to hang out on deck
dinghy storage
getting in and out of berths
sit on the toilet on any boat you are considering
Ease of in and out of a dinghy or water.
Places to store food and pots/pans

You can't shop for boats on the internet you need to go see the boats! Most brokers don't know multis like they know monos.

My thoughts
Maxim 38, best looking cat in its size. The galley where the sink was is lower than the rest of the bridge deck and really slammed. I couldn't sleep aft starboard side due to low clearance at my feet. The boom crane for the dinghy is a horrible idea. Now I know why no boats are shown at boat shows with dinghy aboard. It completly blocks the aft walkway. this boat like the Manta has the walk through heads, which for cruising is fine for guests, it doesn't work for charter.

Manta 38 haven't sailed, so really don't want to offer any opinion.

Lagoon 380, boat sails great, probably best for the size. Great berths and nice heads, probably best for the size. There are 2 versions of this the older and newer S2. There is minimal cockpit storage on the boat. You can't have the bimini closed when sailing due to low clearance., so you are in the sun Hard to get in and out of the helm and you can only go to port side to get out. Mainsheet comes down to aft of the cockpit and you can't get it tight enough if you are motoring, it will always squeak.
No food storage area or decent food prep, this boat was just built for charter work.

Lagoon 410. Better galley, with better refrigeration. Same small cockpit. The heads are smaller than the 380 and not wide enough for me to clean up after doing my business. The aft berths are turned sideways and over the bridgedeck, these really are low and slam while passagemaking. Also I am too tall to sleep aft as I go bulkhead to bulkhead. These boats seem to have more hull creaking noises AKA flex than any other I have sailed. Due to all the fancy wood work you never see the cracks.

Lagoon 420 - very poor construction quality, but the boat looks good. The electric just isn't working, which is why they are now going to diesel. But not in price range to consider

Island Spirt 37 a great sailing boat. Very popular with guests, the space is incredible, this boat uses all 37 feet of her length. Very interesting story on the design of the boat, built by a cruiser. Some of these boats were factory built some sold as hull deck and bulkhead. So quality varies. Heads are a bit tight, galley has tons of storage for anything. The deck area is wide with a lot of seating in logical places. Maintenance history is dubious on many of these as they have been passed around to several charter fleets. Some of these can be had cheap and worth putting money into. Can be setup for singlehandling.

Island Spirit 400 great improvement over the 37, there are several in charter in the virgins. Same layout as the 37, but a lot of tweaks. These boats do not have a walk through head as someone thought earlier. The heads could be bigger. Definately designed for liveaboard rather than for the charter market. Too bad the original owners sold the factory and it since failed. There were not many of the 400s built and they are the sleeper on the market as most people have never heard of them. All setup for single handling

Island Spirit 401 a poor redesign - haven't sailed one, just been aboard. Seem to be built with cheaper materials. The company failed while building these which would explain the cheaper materials.

Admiral 38 - the early ones were crap in every sense of the word. The newer ones 2005 and younger are great. It just took Dave Bird a while to mature in the construction. The cockpits are small as they have the walkway aft. These have the same davits as Leopard and you have to go under the dinghy to get out of the cockpit. Put regular davits and you will have a great boat.

The new Admiral 40 not in price range

Fountain Pajot Athena 38, IN MY opinion the worst boat ever built. Early 90s design with very rounded hulls. No cockpit with no storage. The galley sink backs up to a companion way and you really have to watch for water on the steps. Had many charter accidents on these. Head discharge is ABOVE the waterline, so everything is a floater! These boats are the reason I hated cats early on and what gave cats a bad reputation. Horrible trampolines and no seating forward.

Lavezzia 40. Poor use of space same poor ideas as the other FPs
I don't think the FP designers are sailors.

Leopard 3800. Nice layout, nice seating all over. Could do without the large cockpit table. With the 42 hp engines she doesn't sale well.

Leopard 4000 - not in price range so I won't comment but very narrow.

Leopard 4500 probably the most popular charter boat. Very large boat. I have seen some with a retrofit hard top which would be the way to go. Great refrigeration. But for cruising do you want 4 heads? The berths are very high and you have to crawl over someone to get out of bed.
Cockpit table is too big and it needs a better davit system. Not a great live aboard due to size.

Voyage 430, very fast boat. Low to the water and very wide. Cockpit is tiny, berths are nice, heads are nice. You have to walk down to the aft berths at an incline. They should have done just 1 companionway on each side. Boom crane for the dinghy. Some 430s have openings from the cockpit and some do not. The decks are narrow and slope outboard, I never felt comfortable at night.

Voyage 440 tweaks the 430, a rocket sled! Great berths, but not good living area. Not in price range

Jaguar 36/Wildcat. A well thought out boat, just very early in the construction stage, if they were still building, they were getting better. It is 36 feet of living area, unlike an Athena 38 which loses about 6 feet for the dinghy and is really only a 32 ft boat. For just coastal work I would consider one of these.

I think that is about all I have sailed in that size/price range. Again these are my opinions and I have sailed a lot of boats.

IF I was buying in the used market, I would look hard at the Admiral 38 or Island Spirit 400 for cruising, the Jaguar 36 for coastal or weekend sailing.

Jim

[cbcat]

Just to correct my earlier post... the Island Spirit does not have a pass through head. I believe I was thinking of the Voyage 38(?). Anyway, just wanted to clarify!

As a side note, what do you f/t cruisers use as a rule of thumb for annual maintenance costs? I'm sure there are LOTS of variables and I don't want hijack the thread on this topic...

Would you say 10%? 15%? (of purchase price).
(Obviously I'm looking for estimates for the class of boat in this thread)

Thanks!

[Hyprdrv]

Jim,
First time posting and fresher than a dazzy when it comes to sailing but I wanted to thank you for what I think is one of the best posts I've seen on a specific price range. I would ask that maybe you take it to the next level, $250k?? One of the things I've noted on just about all boats except the Lagoons is the view from the Lounge, a lot of boats seem to be quite dark in the lounge areas. Your opinions are appreciated!!

Steve

[Fishman]

Thanks for a good post Jim, I spent 6 years as a charter captain (on a big old ketch), and ease of living on board in my opinion always outways sailing performance (for live-aboard/long term cruising). Good transoms for swimming access, easy access and stowage for dingies, easy access and good visibility on the anchor chain (had 400 pound anchors on the kecth), on some cats you can't even see the chain below the tramp...
Other things which I like on a boat is strong engines and as much fuel as the boat can cope with i.t.o. payload...having strong motors to get you out of a bad anchorage/lee shore/storm etc or just for faster motoring (yes, that extra knot makes a huge difference)
Hyprdrv: There is no difference between the 200 and 250 price ranges, it will be the same cats, but you will just have a greater selection and you may now afford a younger model...have a good look on yachtworld.com (there is a massive selection) and you will soon get a feel for how much each boat costs...

[MikeMak]

Tortola 7 wrote:

Lagoon 420 - very poor construction quality, but the boat looks good. The electric just isn't working, which is why they are now going to diesel. But not in price range to consider


Tortola -

Would you be so kind as to contact me personally (don't want to hijack this thread) with the basis for your impressions as to construction quality. I am seriously considering purchasing a 420 and your informed input would greatly be appreciated.

Mike.

[tortola7]

Someone asked the differences between 200 and 250. Generally they are the same boats, perhaps older and less maintenance. The question in many cases, do you want a project boat you buy cheap or one that is ready to go? Just like buying a house, on the same street houses are often priced different due to maintenance and updates.

[Hyprdrv]

In that case Jim do you see any improvements in quality, lets say the Fountain or Lagoon, when a manufacture produces a larger boat??

[cameron forsyth]

Jim
Great comments on production models. I am of the same opinion for a liveaboard as to comforts, pounding, functional wide helm, adequate toilets, non U tables that allow sitting without crawling over, non crawl bunks, level side decks, etc. Just sold my production cat and am now looking at non production models that have supposedly better sailing qualities as well as more liveboard layouts. Looking presently at Crowther designs in a higher price bracket than your article. Do you have experience with this designer’s boats or comments on 2nd hand boats in say up to $375?
Cameron

[tortola7]

To answer several questions. I haven't sailed many non production models so I really can't comment. I did like the Switch 51, but they are gone, each boat was laid out different. The Dolphin 460 is also pretty nice. Didn't like the Catanas due to the exposed helm.

The big difference in quality on a bigger boat vs a smaller boat both out of a production factory is most buyers of big boats hire a surveyor during construction. Most buyers of production boats don't think to do this, they just trust the charter company. Would you just let a contractor build your $300,000 home without once visiting the site or having anyone outside look at it. I don't think so, but probably 99% of the buyers do just that. Probably adds about $1500 to your cost, which is nothing compared to other issues that you could have in the future.

The other issue I have with cats is the wood work below, sure looks great on a monohull, but on a cat it can hide cracks that a surveyor won't see and if it can't be seen then it doesn't exist....

[schoonerdog]

Other boats to think about than ones commonly mentioned, for those who are looking at new lagoon type prices but worried about some of the issues mentioned recently, look at the PDQ 44. Arguably one of the best for quality without going to the exotic hulls and one of the best for customer service (they have a fulltime repair team that goes out to the boat owner), very nice layout, best galley I've ever seen, best storage, great bridgedeck clearance and nice hull design. She'll also sails pretty well. They simply don't have a fleet of ex charter brokers who are trying to unload the boat since they are exclusively for owners.

For those looking at performance boats but don't have gunboat budgets you might also check out Shuttleworth, the individual fit and finish often depends on the owner as they are custom builds but they are truely great sailing cats. Raced and been aboard several times a Tek 35, very nice boat. Again, a simple yacht racer finish below and above. They are a boat where no engine means no problem, you sail it everywhere. For a bigger boat check out the Shuttleworth Advantage 44.

As to woodwork below, I agree, but depends on the boat. The st francis has a water based epoxy finish on the walls, very simple but you can view every inch of the hull from inside.

[Hyprdrv]

Funny Jim you mention inspection on a new production boat, one of the things I do is home inspections and believe the builders always produce a better product, pay more attention, and bend over backwards when they know someone is watching over their shoulders on new construction.
Will be going to the boat show in Annapolis Saturday (though we have no plans to buy our first boat new) to check out the Cats, I was suppose to get a ride last Sunday on "Catatonic" (44ft Lagoon) but it didn't happen do to a late arrival, that's the 3rd time I've been jilted.
Cindy and I will be spending the first few years on the Chesapeake Bay, The East coast, and hopefully down to the islands one day and thats as far as we plan on going and it doesn't have to be at warp speed. Since Cindy won't give up her China cabinet, living aboard full time isn't going to happen. We love the open view of the Lagoon from the salon, 38 ft seems to be about right however the kitchen is tiny compaired to other boats. It seems to be a very popular boat, I haven't seen any used ones available for several months. At the show we hope to find several boats to choose from that meet the space requirements and gather as much info so we can make the right decision. This site has been a great help and I'll continue to look here for input. I guess in the true sense we're planing to be "coastal cruisers" not "blue Water" but heck if we really get into it we can always buy another boat right?

[SurfNRG]

Originally Posted by jzk

Bumfuzzle? I guess you get what you pay for. In addition to the delam problems, did you notice that the Wildcat is about the slowest 35 foot sailboat you can buy?

I still haven't heard back regarding his basis about the slowest 35 foot boat. As previously mentioned, I've sailed my Wildcat close to 9 knots in the Intracoastal and while loaded down. Not bad for a comfortable cruising catamaran in my book.

Originally Posted by jimlong

Kevin, No actually I'm living in the southwest and most likely will be a seasonal cruiser, the boat I'm looking at is " Anticipation ". Have you seen the boat and yes for sure will do a haulout. I know its been in charter, anything else I should know? Thanks Jim

No, haven't heard about Anticipation. Where is she located?

Regarding anything else you should know - you may wanna check the windows for leaking. Mine did. I'm currently in the process of replacing my fogged out windows with new Lexan. Someone obviously didn't clean them with a polycarbonate safe cleaner which can ruin the clearity. And no matter what they tell you, you can't buff them out to clear again. I'll be reinstalling them with Boatlife's Life Seal which is a hybrid silicon/polyurethane sealant with high adhisive properties - and safe for polycarbonates like Lexan.

Originally Posted by tortola7

Everyone has an opinion out there and all of us come from a different spot. I have been a multihull only skipper for about 9 years doing charter and delivery work East Coast and Caribbean. Sailed pretty much everything under 55 ft. Don't own one, don't need to, don't want to.

Some things are pretty constant. South African boats all have 2 trampolines and are comfortable. Most smaller French boats have 1 tramp and it is net. People all look for different things. All builder think they are building the perfect boat, that boat does not exist. All boats compromise something.

You will spend more time hanging out on these boats than you will spend sailing. You will load these boats with gear and they will slow down. Speed is about the same on all these boats. Solar and wind are must have for cruising, charter companies could save money adding solar.

Items I like
comfort at the helm, access in and out
ability to get to your anchor gear when you foul it
places to hang out on deck
dinghy storage
getting in and out of berths
sit on the toilet on any boat you are considering
Ease of in and out of a dinghy or water.
Places to store food and pots/pans

You can't shop for boats on the internet you need to go see the boats! Most brokers don't know multis like they know monos.

My thoughts
Maxim 38, best looking cat in its size. The galley where the sink was is lower than the rest of the bridge deck and really slammed. I couldn't sleep aft starboard side due to low clearance at my feet. The boom crane for the dinghy is a horrible idea. Now I know why no boats are shown at boat shows with dinghy aboard. It completly blocks the aft walkway. this boat like the Manta has the walk through heads, which for cruising is fine for guests, it doesn't work for charter.

Manta 38 haven't sailed, so really don't want to offer any opinion.

Lagoon 380, boat sails great, probably best for the size. Great berths and nice heads, probably best for the size. There are 2 versions of this the older and newer S2. There is minimal cockpit storage on the boat. You can't have the bimini closed when sailing due to low clearance., so you are in the sun Hard to get in and out of the helm and you can only go to port side to get out. Mainsheet comes down to aft of the cockpit and you can't get it tight enough if you are motoring, it will always squeak.
No food storage area or decent food prep, this boat was just built for charter work.

Lagoon 410. Better galley, with better refrigeration. Same small cockpit. The heads are smaller than the 380 and not wide enough for me to clean up after doing my business. The aft berths are turned sideways and over the bridgedeck, these really are low and slam while passagemaking. Also I am too tall to sleep aft as I go bulkhead to bulkhead. These boats seem to have more hull creaking noises AKA flex than any other I have sailed. Due to all the fancy wood work you never see the cracks.

Lagoon 420 - very poor construction quality, but the boat looks good. The electric just isn't working, which is why they are now going to diesel. But not in price range to consider

Island Spirt 37 a great sailing boat. Very popular with guests, the space is incredible, this boat uses all 37 feet of her length. Very interesting story on the design of the boat, built by a cruiser. Some of these boats were factory built some sold as hull deck and bulkhead. So quality varies. Heads are a bit tight, galley has tons of storage for anything. The deck area is wide with a lot of seating in logical places. Maintenance history is dubious on many of these as they have been passed around to several charter fleets. Some of these can be had cheap and worth putting money into. Can be setup for singlehandling.

Island Spirit 400 great improvement over the 37, there are several in charter in the virgins. Same layout as the 37, but a lot of tweaks. These boats do not have a walk through head as someone thought earlier. The heads could be bigger. Definately designed for liveaboard rather than for the charter market. Too bad the original owners sold the factory and it since failed. There were not many of the 400s built and they are the sleeper on the market as most people have never heard of them. All setup for single handling

Island Spirit 401 a poor redesign - haven't sailed one, just been aboard. Seem to be built with cheaper materials. The company failed while building these which would explain the cheaper materials.

Admiral 38 - the early ones were crap in every sense of the word. The newer ones 2005 and younger are great. It just took Dave Bird a while to mature in the construction. The cockpits are small as they have the walkway aft. These have the same davits as Leopard and you have to go under the dinghy to get out of the cockpit. Put regular davits and you will have a great boat.

The new Admiral 40 not in price range

Fountain Pajot Athena 38, IN MY opinion the worst boat ever built. Early 90s design with very rounded hulls. No cockpit with no storage. The galley sink backs up to a companion way and you really have to watch for water on the steps. Had many charter accidents on these. Head discharge is ABOVE the waterline, so everything is a floater! These boats are the reason I hated cats early on and what gave cats a bad reputation. Horrible trampolines and no seating forward.

Lavezzia 40. Poor use of space same poor ideas as the other FPs
I don't think the FP designers are sailors.

Leopard 3800. Nice layout, nice seating all over. Could do without the large cockpit table. With the 42 hp engines she doesn't sale well.

Leopard 4000 - not in price range so I won't comment but very narrow.

Leopard 4500 probably the most popular charter boat. Very large boat. I have seen some with a retrofit hard top which would be the way to go. Great refrigeration. But for cruising do you want 4 heads? The berths are very high and you have to crawl over someone to get out of bed.
Cockpit table is too big and it needs a better davit system. Not a great live aboard due to size.

Voyage 430, very fast boat. Low to the water and very wide. Cockpit is tiny, berths are nice, heads are nice. You have to walk down to the aft berths at an incline. They should have done just 1 companionway on each side. Boom crane for the dinghy. Some 430s have openings from the cockpit and some do not. The decks are narrow and slope outboard, I never felt comfortable at night.

Voyage 440 tweaks the 430, a rocket sled! Great berths, but not good living area. Not in price range

Jaguar 36/Wildcat. A well thought out boat, just very early in the construction stage, if they were still building, they were getting better. It is 36 feet of living area, unlike an Athena 38 which loses about 6 feet for the dinghy and is really only a 32 ft boat. For just coastal work I would consider one of these.

I think that is about all I have sailed in that size/price range. Again these are my opinions and I have sailed a lot of boats.

IF I was buying in the used market, I would look hard at the Admiral 38 or Island Spirit 400 for cruising, the Jaguar 36 for coastal or weekend sailing.

Jim

Thorougly enjoyed your personal/experienced evaluations on the various boats. And equally glad to hear that you would consider purchasing a Jaguar (Wildcat) even though for what you consider coastal cruising. I myself would feel comfortable coastal cruising (including the Bahamas and Caribbean) in mine and glad to here that there are several other Wildcats that have and are successfully circumnavigating the globe.

Seems like too many people are running with the Bumfuzzle delam stories. Sure it's something you wanna keep in mind - but it doesn't mean that ALL Wildcats are like that. I'm still puzzled as to how the Bumfuzzle survey missed out on the delam issues. And keep in mind, the surveyor (I'll leave his name out) is a highly acclaimed authority on multi-hulls. Hard to believe he would just fly through the survey thinking all was okay cause the boat was fairly new.

While I was Cat shopping I ran across a couple of "well known" brand name boats that are mentioned above. I don't wanna start listing names to avoid a mud slinging match - but ALL BOATS have potential for problems. Sure there are some with better reps than others (and are priced accordingly) but if you're really serious about any boat you'll wanna haul out and survey it. There are too many armchair authorities out there. My advice is to be on the premises while the survey is being done.

And like Jim says, there are no perfect boats - they're all a compromise. I agree with his comments that the Wildcat/Jaguar are well thought out boats. I absolutley love the layout of mine. Unlike what was reviewed in Cruising World stating you had to walk thru a head to access the forward berth - my two heads are both all the way forward. Just like with any boat, there are several layouts. I've looked at the older '99 model Wildcat and didn't care for it - no walk thru transom to swim platform, etc.. But I really like the newer 2001 models and up. And I prefer the Galley Down for boats under 40 ft..

I've been inside some cats that made me feel like I was in a cave. Like the newer Lagoon's my Wildcat has an awesome panoramic view from the saloon. You don't feel confined to the cabin.

I'm not saying the Wildcat is the holy grail of catamarans - by no means. But for the price it was the best deal I could find on a boat that I really liked. And no, my Wildcat is not 4 sale.

If I had a larger budget I would consider the Voyage/Maxim's, the Admiral's, the larger Foutain Pujot's, the newer Lagoons (with the vertical/panaramoikc windows), the St. Francis, and the Robertson Caine / Leopards - but they were all outside my price range (above $200K).

I actually came close to making an offer on a used 38 ft Leopard/Moorings while in Tortola (listed at $189K) that was being taken out of charter service. Was a bit leary about the weight of the large 42 hp engines (I wanna boat that sails and not something to waterski behind). Then after finding and personally inspecting the "specific" boat and not a "sister ship" that the salesmen was showing me I discovered the transmission to the starboard engine was in pieces and there were several broken hardware pieces in the galley/saloon. And the mold issue was a bit scary. Definitely a well used charter boat. Then as I sat indoors with the salesman hearing his claim that they take impecable care of their charter boats I noticed it was pouring rain outside and most of the charter boats had their hatches left open. I'm not saying that all ex-charter boats are like the one I've described but just wanted to share my experience with this one.

For the boat of my dreams I would say it'd be the Voyage 50 ft Mayotte if I had the coin in me pocket. It was at the this years Miami Boat show for those that were there. The owners had it all decorated super nice. That Gun Boat was awesome as well as the Lagoon 440 with flybridge - but these boats are way beyond my budget - but I can still dream.

Any feedback yet from Annapolis?